ROE in masterbatch - bubbles in the oils

SoapMakingForum

Help Support SoapMakingForum:

Orla

Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2020
Messages
95
Reaction score
77
Location
Paris
Hi all, I was wondering if someone else has noticed that if you add ROE to your masterbatch, when you heat up the oils you need, the top has a film of tiny bubbles, almost a mousse. I decided that maybe heating in the microwave was the source of the problem and so last night heated the oils with the double-boiler method. Same, same. On both occasions, I ended up (tediously) skimming off the mousse and stirring gently, gently in the hopes of getting the bubbles out. I really am persuaded it's the influence of the ROE - prior to this, I never had a bubbles problem at all. I'm wondering if it's possible to spray the surface with alcohol - I think I saw this done on some video I watched. The first soap (microwave version) now definitely has bubbles. I was paranoid the second time, so I'm hoping for better results. Has anyone else noticed this? Are there any risks involved in spraying the surface with alcohol? Being soaping-accident prone, I was too nervous to try...
 

glendam

Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2018
Messages
331
Reaction score
611
Location
77063
I have not seen this with my oils, I add the ROE when making the master batch and neither at that point nor at the time of making the soap have I noticed it. Do you think there may be some residue left in your containers?
 

Orla

Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2020
Messages
95
Reaction score
77
Location
Paris
Oh that's interesting Glendam, thank you. Yes, I did wonder about the containers and I thought I cleaned the measuring jug quite scrupulously, but if you say you've never had that reaction then I'll have to check and double-check the next time. Thank you.
 

Orla

Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2020
Messages
95
Reaction score
77
Location
Paris
Hi Penelope, to be honest, I can't say now what percentage I added it at. I did some maths because from what I'd read, the percentage rate for hard oils wasn't the same as for soft oils. So I did the maths (based on my ratio of hard to soft) and added that percentage to the lot. It may have been too much. I'm still on the same masterbatch so I'm still getting all the bubbles on the oils when they are heated and I have to skim them off. But they are not making their way into the soap so I just deal with it. Thank you, I'll bear your figure in mind if I ever have to use ROE again. I wouldn't have had to except that I had to adjust a masterbatch and after all that palaver I had such a big masterbatch that it worried me I might run into problems. Thank you for your reply. I don't think I'll bother with the ROE again really. I've only been soapmaking since April or May last, but I've never had any DOS problems, not the sign of a sign...
 

AliOop

Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Nov 15, 2018
Messages
3,668
Reaction score
5,665
Location
US
I have not had this problem, either. I also would not spray with alcohol, since that can cause your soap to seize. Of course, the amount of alcohol added via spray probably would be minor enough for this not to happen, but I personally wouldn't want to risk it.
 

DeeAnna

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
13,453
Reaction score
19,292
Location
USA
...from what I'd read, the percentage rate for hard oils wasn't the same as for soft oils....
Can't say I've ever come across this advice. I would appreciate knowing where you learned this so I can study the information too. Can you give a reference to the source?

"...if you add ROE to your masterbatch, when you heat up the oils you need, the top has a film of tiny bubbles, almost a mousse. ..."

I have never seen this happen to my fats.
 

Orla

Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2020
Messages
95
Reaction score
77
Location
Paris
Good morning DeeAnna, I don't think you are going to think very much of my source. I just checked, and it was the French site Aromazone. It says
DE 0,05 À 0,10 % POUR LES ACIDES GRAS SATURÉS (1 À 2 GOUTTES POUR 100 ML) ET DE 0,20 À 0,40 % POUR LES ACIDES GRAS POLYINSATURÉS (4 À 8 GOUTTES POUR 100 ML)
Source: Extrait CO2 de Romarin BIO - Aroma-Zone
Based on that though, and comparing with PenelopeJane's advice, it seems like I added too much. I would have calculated the average for both... (and then, factoring in my 40:60 ratio, the average of that). I could, of course, ask them to provide me with their source for that info. If you like, I will. All my best, Orla
 

DeeAnna

Well-Known Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
13,453
Reaction score
19,292
Location
USA
Wow. 0.05% to 0.1% for saturated fat and 0.4% for unsaturated. Those are high dosages, regardless of the type of fat. But I also see you're using the CO2 extract, so perhaps the dosage is different. The ROE most people use is solvent extracted (meaning a solvent that is not CO2).

The sources I've found recommend 0.2 to 1.0 g ROE per 1000 g fat (0.02% to 0.1% ppo). I add ROE at 0.05% ppo to fats right after I receive them or when I'm rendering lard or tallow, I add ROE to the fat right after rendering. I have to say this dosage seems to be working very well so far.

I'm leery of using more antioxidant than the amount required to get the job done -- more is definitely not better when it comes to antioxidants.
 

Orla

Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2020
Messages
95
Reaction score
77
Location
Paris
yes, so my tuppence ha'penny contribution to the science of ROE is that if you add too much you get a mousse of bubbles on your oils whenever you heat them and by whatever means!!!:rolleyes:
 

glendam

Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2018
Messages
331
Reaction score
611
Location
77063
I was doing an oil master batch and when I saw the bubbles I remembered this post. Not sure if this is the kind of bubbles you see @Orla, I usually get them when the oils are melting, they just seem to form from the heat but eventually most of them dissolve. The first three pictures were taken before adding ROE. Last picture (bottom right) is after stirring ROE
 

Attachments

Orla

Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2020
Messages
95
Reaction score
77
Location
Paris
I was doing an oil master batch and when I saw the bubbles I remembered this post. Not sure if this is the kind of bubbles you see @Orla, I usually get them when the oils are melting, they just seem to form from the heat but eventually most of them dissolve. The first three pictures were taken before adding ROE. Last picture (bottom right) is after stirring ROE
aha! That, Glendam, is exactly what I see! But a little bit more than in pic 2. I don't seem to be able to stir it out, mine is more of genuine mousse. As I said, I have to skim it off! Can I ask you what percentage of ROE you add?
 

glendam

Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 30, 2018
Messages
331
Reaction score
611
Location
77063
aha! That, Glendam, is exactly what I see! But a little bit more than in pic 2. I don't seem to be able to stir it out, mine is more of genuine mousse. As I said, I have to skim it off! Can I ask you what percentage of ROE you add?
I couldn’t stir out that foam either, it seems more bubbles were created when stirring and that they were coming from the bottom (like a light attempt at reaching boiling point) however since the oils were still opaque and not completely clear, I left it in low heat, while monitoring it. Most of the bubbles dissolved on their own once the oils were clear enough that I could see the bottom of the pot (third picture) That was when I added the Roe (at 0.05%, for 400 oz of oils it was 0.2 oz).

I suppose some of the bubbles got poured out as I distributed the oils into storage containers, as I didn’t see them when pouring into third and fourth containers.
Do you melt your oils until they are clear? I wonder if it has to do with the oils, I know that when I used lard, they never got as transparent as with beef Tallow.
I haven’t seen any bubbles when I actually use the oils, btw.
 

Orla

Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2020
Messages
95
Reaction score
77
Location
Paris
Hi Glendam, I think we might be comparing oranges and apples really because my problems only emerged when I reheated the masterbatch. And I do think the source of the problem (in my case) was excessive ROE. And yes, the problem did migrate directly from the mousse on the reheated oils from the masterbatch into the soap I made - thus the subsequent paranoia. But my skimming method works fine!!! :rolleyes: I'm just dumping ROE - I really don't feel the necessity... best wishes, Orla
 

penelopejane

Well-Known Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2015
Messages
5,459
Reaction score
4,247
Location
Sth Coast, NSW, Australia
Hi Glendam, I think we might be comparing oranges and apples really because my problems only emerged when I reheated the masterbatch. And I do think the source of the problem (in my case) was excessive ROE. And yes, the problem did migrate directly from the mousse on the reheated oils from the masterbatch into the soap I made - thus the subsequent paranoia. But my skimming method works fine!!! :rolleyes: I'm just dumping ROE - I really don't feel the necessity... best wishes, Orla
ROE is one of those things that really does effect the longevity of oils and as a consequence the longevity of your soap. It’s easy to add 0.05% to liquid oils when they arrive and it really is worth it in the long run. I don’t bother adding it to butters or hard oils.
 

ResolvableOwl

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2021
Messages
182
Reaction score
326
Location
Germany
Maybe it is not the ROE itself but something else in there? That would explain differing experiences. For example, my ROE cocktail (also CO₂ extracted) lists 11% lecithin as an ingredient, which is a strong surface-active agent.

I never saw an oil foaming that way, but I'm using ROE at 0.4 g / kg oils (30 ppm carnosic acid), which is about the lower end of what your vendor recommends for (hard oil) dosage. Overdosing by a mere factor of 2 already results in visible discolouration of soap batter after seconds (I'm having a long-term experiment to this curing on my stash atm).
 

Latest posts

Top