Replacing water with vinegar

[Kcryss]

Hello how did it turn out? How did it feel on the skin?

I have learned that, at least for me, I cannot use CA or vinegar without it causing longer cook times. I honestly have no idea why, but that's what happens.
From a feel perspective, the bars are harder with the vinegar, so I actually decided I don't like that a whole lot. Beyond that I don't really notice much difference.
I stopped using Aloe, CA, Vinegar, and Salt in the lye water. Now, I just use water and sodium gluconate. I do still add a little aloe, yogurt and sugar after the cook. The bars now seem a tab bit softer which I like, they lather well and so far I haven't had any issues.

 

[AliOop]

@cmzaha You commented earlier on this thread that the vinegar adjustment didn't work for you on SM Friend. I noted that it did work for me.

Well, I just tried it with the master-batched lye option, and it did NOT work. There was no liquid adjustment or lye adjustment for the vinegar at all.

So I was wondering if that was the issue, that perhaps you were using masterbatched lye, and previously I was not, and that's why our results differed? I mean, it should work either way, but at least we would both know we aren't crazy (about that, anyway).

 

[cmzaha]

@cmzaha You commented earlier on this thread that the vinegar adjustment didn't work for you on SM Friend. I noted that it did work for me.

Well, I just tried it with the master-batched lye option, and it did NOT work. There was no liquid adjustment or lye adjustment for the vinegar at all.

So I was wondering if that was the issue, that perhaps you were using masterbatched lye, and previously I was not, and that's why our results differed? I mean, it should work either way, but at least we would both know we aren't crazy (about that, anyway).

I very well may have been using the masterbatched lye since that is what I usually use. It is really nice to know that maybe I am not crazy, and that is why once it did work. Thank you for the info.

 

[AliOop]

I was just trying to decide whether to start master-batching my lye. But since I use vinegar in the majority of my soaps, and since it doesn't work in SM Friend, I am reconsidering. I am great with math concepts but terrible with details... I make so many silly math mistakes that I don't trust myself to do the figuring. So I'll probably stick with making the lye as I go. Sigh.

 

[Soaps_and_more]

I am just reading slowly through this thread, but I have to shout out to you all: YOU ARE ALL SO AWESOME!!!

Thank you for being so curious and doing these things! I adore you all.

Sorry I can be a bit excited when it comes to soap making, hahaha. But isnt this the best hobby!! Always something to learn and to improve!

 

[smengot0]

Hello wonderful soap makers!
Does your soap batter trace faster when you replace water with vinegar? I have had this issue in the past. Maybe it's just me?
Thanks

 

[AliOop]

I haven’t seen that, but I tend to use slow-tracing blends so it may have, but I would not have noticed if it did.

I do have to add the lye more slowly so the reaction with the vinegar doesn’t overflow. And it does make for hotter lye liquid, for sure - esp with added sugar.

 

[cmzaha]

No, it does not cause my soap to trace faster and I use vinegar in all my soap batches, at least not in my experience.

 

[BinxHowell]

I think I'm feeling brave enough to try this, does anyone have any advice on using ACV? Does it perform the same as regular vinegar?

 

[AliOop]

Yes, ACV will make your batter significantly darker than plain white vinegar.

 

[cmzaha]

I would suggest using distilled vinegar due to the color difference of the ACV

 

[BinxHowell]

Yes, ACV will make your batter significantly darker than plain white vinegar.

Got it, let me tell you about my idea on this.
So I have my first craft fair in a month and I want to offer some hot (social media) items. I keep seeing everyone and their Mom making Yoni soap. I kind of want to make up and try a recipe because the ones I have been seeing have about a million different ingredients, and I try to keep it simple. SO, that being said, color isn't a huge concern, but obviously PH is. I'm still new to soap making, about a year in, and I feel like I am honestly just now hitting my stride for product consistence (hence this being my first craft show, I didn't feel ready till recently).
Does anyone have any feedback on the Yoni bar craze?

 

[David James]

I recommend that anyone using vinegar really evaluate their reasons why they are doing it.

I used to use it in every batch for a boost in hardness, but it is sort of a false hardness. It is not truly a harder soap, but a mixture of soft soap and hard sodium acetate.

The sodium acetate doesn't hurt anything, but is water soluble and just means there is less soap in your soap.

One of the main benefits or a harder soap (when made with "harder" oils) is a longer lasting soap bar. You do not get this benefit when using vinegar (or adding acetic acid). In this way, it's a bit like adding lots of salt. You get a hard bar that dissolves more easily in water and is harder to cut.

It will not affect the final pH of the soap. It just reacts with the extra lye you need to add and leaves behind a bunch of non-soap bits inside of your soap.

It does affect temperatures and timing. Vinegar reacts immediately with lye and gets hot quickly. The race to trace is fast and (for me) less predictable. It doesn't necessarily trace faster, but it gets hot faster.

I just no longer see any benefits to using any vinegar.

 

[AliOop]

@David James I agree that vinegar gets hot more quickly than distilled water when mixed with NaOH. But if you let either type of lye solution cool to a specific temperature before soaping, then that initial heat reaction becomes irrelevant in terms of time to trace. Once the solution has cooled, I never found that a vinegar-NaOH solution moved any faster than a distilled-water-NaOH solution.

I don't think anyone is claiming that vinegar makes for a harder or longer-lasting soap. Vinegar does cause the soap to firm up sooner in the mold, so it can be unmolded sooner and more cleanly. For me, this eliminates the need for sodium lactate, which often gave me chalky spots in my soap.

Which brings me to the point that all salts are not created equal when it comes to making soap. I personally have a great preference for how vinegar behaves in soap, as opposed to table salt or sodium lactate.

But that's me, and you are free to have different preferences on that point.

Got it, let me tell you about my idea on this.
So I have my first craft fair in a month and I want to offer some hot (social media) items. I keep seeing everyone and their Mom making Yoni soap. I kind of want to make up and try a recipe because the ones I have been seeing have about a million different ingredients, and I try to keep it simple. SO, that being said, color isn't a huge concern, but obviously PH is. I'm still new to soap making, about a year in, and I feel like I am honestly just now hitting my stride for product consistence (hence this being my first craft show, I didn't feel ready till recently).
Does anyone have any feedback on the Yoni bar craze?

Sorry, I didn't see this post before responding to @David James, and now I have more clarity on why he said what he did.

You will not lower the pH of your soap by adding vinegar. Vinegar will only "use up" some of the NaOH to convert into sodium acetate. Due to less NaOH available to convert the oils into soap, you will end up with a larger superfat - unless you adjust the lye to compensate for that. But again, no effect on pH.

Regarding the rest of the debate as to Yoni soap, I'd encourage you to use the search function to read all the prior posts about this. I don't think I can add anything to that.

 

[Nicolesica]

@David James I agree that vinegar gets hot more quickly than distilled water when mixed with NaOH. But if you let either type of lye solution cool to a specific temperature before soaping, then that initial heat reaction becomes irrelevant in terms of time to trace. Once the solution has cooled, I never found that a vinegar-NaOH solution moved any faster than a distilled-water-NaOH solution.

I don't think anyone is claiming that vinegar makes for a harder or longer-lasting soap. Vinegar does cause the soap to firm up sooner in the mold, so it can be unmolded sooner and more cleanly. For me, this eliminates the need for sodium lactate, which often gave me chalky spots in my soap.

Which brings me to the point that all salts are not created equal when it comes to making soap. I personally have a great preference for how vinegar behaves in soap, as opposed to table salt or sodium lactate.

But that's me, and you are free to have different preferences on that point.


Sorry, I didn't see this post before responding to @David James, and now I have more clarity on why he said what he did.

You will not lower the pH of your soap by adding vinegar. Vinegar will only "use up" some of the NaOH to convert into sodium acetate. Due to less NaOH available to convert the oils into soap, you will end up with a larger superfat - unless you adjust the lye to compensate for that. But again, no effect on pH.

Regarding the rest of the debate as to Yoni soap, I'd encourage you to use the search function to read all the prior posts about this. I don't think I can add anything to that.

Hmmm… I’ve never heard of sodium lactate causing white spots, but the last two batches I made with SL do indeed have white spots, and I just assumed they were TD or Stearic spots. Now I’m not so sure…
I smell an experiment in the works..

 

[AliOop]

Hmmm… I’ve never heard of sodium lactate causing white spots, but the last two batches I made with SL do indeed have white spots, and I just assumed they were TD or Stearic spots. Now I’m not so sure…
I smell an experiment in the works..

To clarify, I didn’t get white spots from SL. What I frequently get from SL are chalky patches, mostly in the corners or along the edges, similar to what happens when I pour at very thin (apparently too thin) of an emulsion.