Recipe mystery

[wikkedsuzanna]

Hi all!
I've been reading through other posts, and I am getting mildly conflicting info regarding how fast something traces. I have a palm-free recipe that I have used for years, just olive oil and coconut oil, with a little bit of castor oil. It's 38% water/fat ratio. Lately it's traced so fast that it's nearly solid before I can even remove the stick blender. I never even got a chance to add any FO that might've accelerated trace, so it's not that. I tried BJ's "light" olive oil when they were out of the olive oil I normally buy. That was my first experience with the fast trace. Then I bought pomace olive oil, thinking the "light" oil had some other oil added that accelerated the trace. The pomace OO also had a fast trace. Some threads that I've read say pomace accelerates trace, others say there is no difference. I've looked at other sites too. I tried a shea butter recipe to see if that made any difference, but it was still too fast of a trace to get it out of the pot. I am only using the stick blender enough to mix the solid oils into the liquid oils. I suppose next I could try a castile soap to rule out the CO. What am I missing? Thanks! Meanwhile, I'm getting a big inventory of soap dough.

 

[Mobjack Bay]

I’ve used light OO from the grocery store that behaved as expected (slow to trace), but also had other jugs that behaved badly. When I use OO now, I try to stick with the light version from Costco. Mostly I avoid OO in favor of other liquid oils, such as high oleic sunflower, avocado and rice bran.

 

[lenarenee]

The oils in grocery stores are often blends that are mixed with olive oil are cheaper oils like canola and sunflower, neither of which don't accelerate trace. If the your oils are freshly purchased, then I'm wondering how old the oils were when they were bottled. (old oil has higher amounts of free fatty acids which react quickly to lye = acceleration)

 

[wikkedsuzanna]

Thanks for the quick reply. I was off making a batch of castile, and it still traced to solid before I could pour it. Is your "light" OO Bertoli by any chance? I've ordered NaOH from a different supplier, to rule that out.
I suppose next I could do a 100% CO to rule that out.

 

[earlene]

I don't even use a stick blender when I use 50% pomace OO, that is how fast it traces.

While you still have pomace, I would suggest you try hand stirring and leave the SBer on the shelf.

Maybe also try a water discount. By 38%water/oil ratio do you mean you use the default setting in SoapCalc called water as percent of oils? I suggest you change the setting to water to lye ratio or lye concentration and choose something like 35% lye concentration or 1.9:1 water to lye ratio.

I would add the FO to the oils, mix well, then pour in the ROOM TEMPERATURE lye solution (made up ahead of time and allowed to cool to room temperature) slowly while hand stirring. Even doing it this way, my Castile with 50% pomace and 50% plain OO still thickens pretty quickly by hand stirring only. It takes less than 5 minutes from the start of mixing to get it into the mold. So colors tend to be fast and furious or only a single color or none at all. There is no time for an intricate swirl with pomace in my experience.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Here's a YouTube video of Zany's No Slime Castile - 100% Olive Oil. Watching it may inspire you to arrive at why this is happening to a tried & true recipe.

 

[TheGecko]

You have to be very careful when purchasing Olive Oil in grocery store and make sure that it is actually 100% Olive Oil (doesn't have to be EV) and not some 'blend' that may not contain much olive to begin with.

Pomace can trace fat, especially at warmer temps. I used to use it because it was cheaper, but then I got a Costco card.

 

[ScentimentallyYours]

Here's a YouTube video of Zany's No Slime Castile - 100% Olive Oil. Watching it may inspire you to arrive at why this is happening to a tried & true recipe.

Thank you so much for posting this video! I keep reading about ZNSC soap, but the video makes me want to check it out ASAP. I even have the same mold to do a test batch.

 

[wikkedsuzanna]

Maybe also try a water discount. By 38%water/oil ratio do you mean you use the default setting in SoapCalc called water as percent of oils? I suggest you change the setting to water to lye ratio or lye concentration and choose something like 35% lye concentration or 1.9:1 water to lye ratio.

Yes I use the default setting, I'll try your suggestion. Since I have 2 pails of pomace OO to use up now.

 

[wikkedsuzanna]

Here's a YouTube video of Zany's No Slime Castile - 100% Olive Oil. Watching it may inspire you to arrive at why this is happening to a tried & true recipe.

I'm confused. She's using storebought OO which is discouraged, and it is taking a long time to trace. The only thing I can see about accelerated trace is the reference to the SB. Did I miss something?

 

[wikkedsuzanna]

You have to be very careful when purchasing Olive Oil in grocery store and make sure that it is actually 100% Olive Oil (doesn't have to be EV) and not some 'blend' that may not contain much olive to begin with.

Pomace can trace fat, especially at warmer temps. I used to use it because it was cheaper, but then I got a Costco card.

I bought my pomace OO from Bulk Natural Oils, I had better luck with the OO from BJ's when I could get the one labelled "pure" OO. TBH I don't see how BJ's/Costco and grocery store would differ that much in having "blended" OO. I would think you would need to pay attention to labels at both. I've never bought at a grocery store, it's just too expensive.

I used a whisk with the oils and lye water at room temp. It was slower to get to trace. I waited for it to be able to support the embed in the mold, put the embed in, and by then the remaining batch had solidified in the pot. And I was rushing through this method. So I'm just going to wait to see how the supplies from BB behave.

 

[wikkedsuzanna]

Hi,
I'm following up. I got my BB supplies, I read Scientific Soapmaking (a very good reference, by the way) and was very careful to note the conditions of each of my experiment soaps.
The end result is that for the longest fluid working time, the oils and lye solution should be at around 80° F. Then, stick blending should be used minimally, because once it speeds up the trace to get it to where you need it, the process doesn't slow down. Even if you stop earlier in the process. Stick blending at the start to get to emulsion only gives a longer working time. And if you think you've got everything planned, KNOW YOUR FO's! Even going from one manufacturer to another, the acceleration can be even greater than you're used to. I was hoping for the opposite yikes! Lastly, pomace vs OO was not a big difference in speed of trace for me.
Thanks for all the leads on where to look for causes of fast trace.

 

[ScentimentallyYours]

I read Scientific Soapmaking (a very good reference, by the way) . . . <snip> stick blending should be used minimally, because once it speeds up the trace to get it to where you need it, the process doesn't slow down. Even if you stop earlier in the process. Stick blending at the start to get to emulsion only gives a longer working time.

Are you saying that any stick blending will continue to accelerate trace? I don’t know the chemistry of how it would work, but find the concept intriguing since it dovetails into some of my experience. Perhaps someone else with a better knowledge of chemistry can chime in to explain how this works.

 

[AliOop]

Yes, any stick-blending will continue to accelerate trace. After a certain point, the trace will keep accelerating even after you stop stick-blending. That point will vary depending on your recipe and temps, as well as your FO/EO and other additives.

Another factor is your lye concentration, which seems to work on a bell curve. Lower lye concentration can slow trace, which speeds up as you increase lye concentration, until it begins slowing again at even higher concentrations. For me, either 32% or 40% lye concentration are the sweet spots that slow trace; anything in between speeds up my batter. Others may have a different sweet spot depending on their recipe and temps.

I personally do get significant acceleration from pomace OO, and mild acceleration from castor oil and most butters. But heat and over stick-blending are the most common causes for quick acceleration of my batter.

 

[TheGecko]

The end result is that for the longest fluid working time, the oils and lye solution should be at around 80° F.

Maybe...maybe not; it's going to depend on your recipe. If you recipe is high in Hard Oils/Butters, soaping at 80F can lead to 'false trace'...where those oils and butters are starting to solidify again which will lead to your batter separating.

My recipe is 65% Hard Oils/Butters. I push the lower temps with my GMS, but only because I'm SBing to a Medium Trace to begin with and I do that because I only add scent to my GMS so no 'working time' is really needed. For my Regular Soap...90F is as low as I want to go because it takes about an hour or so before my soap starts to warm up...which means it's cooling down in the mean time. But then again, I don't make a lot of complicated swirls so not likely I'm going to drop too much below 90F before I put it on the shelf.

Then, stick blending should be used minimally, because once it speeds up the trace to get it to where you need it, the process doesn't slow down. Even if you stop earlier in the process. Stick blending at the start to get to emulsion only gives a longer working time.

Yep...as soon as you pour your Lye Solution into your oils, the clock starts ticking and there is no way to stop it. I make my GMS with full milk replacement and as I am mixing the lye with the frozen goat milk it is already starting to react with the fats in the milk. By the time I'm done, my Lye Solution is a thin slurry and if I let it sit, it would eventually turn in soap. A dangerously lye-heavy soap too be sure, but soap.

And if you think you've got everything planned, KNOW YOUR FO's! Even going from one manufacturer to another, the acceleration can be even greater than you're used to. I was hoping for the opposite yikes! Lastly, pomace vs OO was not a big difference in speed of trace for me.

Which is why I run test batches. Not only for new scents, but also for new colorants.

To be honest, nothing is a given in soap making. I have a great recipe that I've been using for over two years now. The majority of time I have no issues with it, but occasionally it throws me a few curves and I don't always know why. Is the batter too warm, to cool? Is the room temp too warm, too cool? Was there something different about the oils or butters I used? Did I SB too much or too little? Was I in a great mood or a so-so mood? Was I well-rested or was my back acting up? Was it Tuesday instead of Wednesday?

 

[linne1gi]

Hi all!
I've been reading through other posts, and I am getting mildly conflicting info regarding how fast something traces. I have a palm-free recipe that I have used for years, just olive oil and coconut oil, with a little bit of castor oil. It's 38% water/fat ratio. Lately it's traced so fast that it's nearly solid before I can even remove the stick blender. I never even got a chance to add any FO that might've accelerated trace, so it's not that. I tried BJ's "light" olive oil when they were out of the olive oil I normally buy. That was my first experience with the fast trace. Then I bought pomace olive oil, thinking the "light" oil had some other oil added that accelerated the trace. The pomace OO also had a fast trace. Some threads that I've read say pomace accelerates trace, others say there is no difference. I've looked at other sites too. I tried a shea butter recipe to see if that made any difference, but it was still too fast of a trace to get it out of the pot. I am only using the stick blender enough to mix the solid oils into the liquid oils. I suppose next I could try a castile soap to rule out the CO. What am I missing? Thanks! Meanwhile, I'm getting a big inventory of soap dough.

You said you only use the stick blender enough to mix the solid oils into the liquid oils - are you use heat transfer method? That would be using the hot lye solution to melt the hard oils, then adding the liquid oils to this. Otherwise - I suggest literally 5-6 pulses with the stick blender and then put it away. Check out some YouTube videos of emulsion, and try to only mix that much - trace is already too much. The other thing is this: there are 3 grades of Olive Oil 1-Extra Virgin Olive Oil, 2-Refined Olive Oil, 3-Pomace Olive Oil. Pomace Olive Oil always will trace faster - it is from the dregs of the olive, the chemical, Hexane is used to extract every bit of the Hexane. Hexane is primarily a gas and much care is taken to remove the Hexane from the Olive Oil, but a bit still remains, and that is why it traces fast. Pomace is also often a darker green tint, much like Extra Virgin Olive Oil - and that is another reason to not use it. The darker tint really messes up colors - so, really the best choice is Refined Olive Oil. But definitely read labels because as stated a lot of Olive Oil is now a mixture of other oils.