Recipe failure?

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Todd Ziegler

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I am hoping someone can drop some knowledge on me? I think I know why I had a problem with recipe A and not recipe B but I was hoping some of you would give me your analysis?
 

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Todd Ziegler

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Sorry forgot to add one more picture.

Recipe A keeps sticking to the sides of my molds and it doesn't matter which mold I use. The amount of time in the mold does not seem to make a difference either because this one sat for 48 hours. Also I wasn't able to get the gelling temperature above 110F and I like to have the gelling temperature at 120F or just a little bit higher.

Recipe B only sat for 18 hours and came out great. The gelling temperature got to 125F which is what I like.
 

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Obsidian

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Hmm, I don't know what the issue is. The only real difference I see is recipe A has the palm kernel.
Seems like it will need more insulation or even cpop to get it to gel.

The only time I've had soaps stick like that is when the soap was ungelled and it hadn't saponified all the way.
You could always apply a very thin layer of vaseline to the mold, that should help release it at least.
 

Mobjack Bay

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Does Recipe B have more Palmitic+Stearic? If so, that might make it set up faster. I don't use palm kernel oil, so I'm just guessing, but I seem to recall that it is more like CO, but with a bit of stearic and palmitic.
 

Todd Ziegler

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Hmm, I don't know what the issue is. The only real difference I see is recipe A has the palm kernel.
Seems like it will need more insulation or even cpop to get it to gel.

The only time I've had soaps stick like that is when the soap was ungelled and it hadn't saponified all the way.
You could always apply a very thin layer of vaseline to the mold, that should help release it at least.
I just noticed one problem after you pointed it out to me. In recipe B, I entered palm oil but used palm kernel oil.

I also increased the coconut oil for B, so maybe that helped. Recipe A, never gelled properly and I am going to guess that is the difference in the two. Other than the ingredient mistake.

I made another batch of the B recipe today and I entered and used PKO, so I will see what happens to this batch.
 

Todd Ziegler

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Does Recipe B have more Palmitic+Stearic? If so, that might make it set up faster. I don't use palm kernel oil, so I'm just guessing, but I seem to recall that it is more like CO, but with a bit of stearic and palmitic.
Recipe A had 15% palm kernel oil and B has 10% but I increased the coconut oil. However in B, I entered palm oil in the calculator but used PKO instead and I am confused now.
 

Todd Ziegler

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Any PH testing done?
No, I don't do any ph testing. I normally use palm kernel flakes but I ran out and had to use the palm kernel oil. Which I believe wouldn't make that big of a difference, maybe I'm wrong. In another week I will be able to order more supplies and get back to making my standard recipe. I have been layed off because of the virus and I had to use different ingredients because I was out of my standard recipe ingredients. I will be glad when that happens.
 

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What was your intended superfat? Also, using a pH test is pretty useless for soap unless you want to prove that it is an alkali.
 

Arimara

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Did you take notes while making these soaps? I think that would help more at this point. I have never worked with palm kernel oil itself, only the flakes but I'm wondering if you mismeasured somewhere.
 

Todd Ziegler

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Did you take notes while making these soaps? I think that would help more at this point. I have never worked with palm kernel oil itself, only the flakes but I'm wondering if you mismeasured somewhere.
I could have measured something wrong. I have a check list that I mark after I do each ingredient but that is it. At this point, I believe I did measure something wrong.
 

Mobjack Bay

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Recipe A had 15% palm kernel oil and B has 10% but I increased the coconut oil. However in B, I entered palm oil in the calculator but used PKO instead and I am confused now.
PKO has a higher sap than Palm oil, but luckily, when you switched recipes, you didn't make the substitution one for one and the percentages of those oils of the total are small to start with. By the calculator I use, it looks like the stearic+palmitic for recipe A is 23 and for recipe B is 28 assuming I entered everything correctly. I would expect B to firm up more quickly based on the differences in the fatty acid profiles and also because it contains some palm oil. This isn't necessarily providing an explanation for what's going on with soap A and I have no experience with PKO...
 

Todd Ziegler

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PKO has a higher sap than Palm oil, but luckily, when you switched recipes, you didn't make the substitution one for one and the percentages of those oils of the total are small to start with. By the calculator I use, it looks like the stearic+palmitic for recipe A is 23 and for recipe B is 28 assuming I entered everything correctly. I would expect B to firm up more quickly based on the differences in the fatty acid profiles and also because it contains some palm oil. This isn't necessarily providing an explanation for what's going on with soap A and I have no experience with PKO...
Thanks, it may be a mistake I made but I can't figure out what the mistake was.
 

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Looking at the shape of the stuck parts in the mold and the colour of the block, Recipe A partially gelled and the ungelled portion of the soap stuck in the mold
The soap looks like it needs only slightly more heat and/or insulation to achieve full gel

Overall, Recipe A would naturally be slower, potentially colder and initially softer than Recipe B

Recipe A is higher in oleic acid and lower in stearic acid than Recipe B
Palm Kernel Oil has more oleic acid in its profile than Palm Kernel Flakes, and there was more PKO and high-oleic sunflower in this recipe than Recipe B
There was also slightly more castor oil in Recipe A and less coconut oil than Recipe B

Starting with warmer oils will assist the softer recipe Recipe A
 
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Todd Ziegler

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Looking at the shape of the stuck parts in the mold and the colour of the block, Recipe A partially gelled and the ungelled portion of the soap stuck in the mold
The soap looks like it needs only slightly more heat and/or insulation to achieve full gel

Overall, Recipe A would naturally be slower, potentially colder and initially softer than Recipe B

Recipe A is higher in oleic acid and lower in stearic acid than Recipe B
Palm Kernel Oil has more oleic acid in its profile than Palm Kernel Flakes, and there was more PKO and high-oleic sunflower in this recipe than Recipe B
There was also slightly more castor oil in Recipe A and less coconut oil than Recipe B

Starting with warmer oils will assist the softer recipe Recipe A
Thanks. I actually made those adjustments yesterday and it looks like it has worked. I will know more after I cut this new batch this morning. I will post a follow up when I am done.
 
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