Rancid soap??

[ResolvableOwl]

Like mentioned before: if you have humidity under suspicion, take care that your soap doesn't pull water from the air, i. e. leave out the extra glycerol, or at least replace it by something less hygroscopic (table sugar).

 

[earlene]

I may be missing something, but I don't see visible DOS in those white bars of soap. If you smell an off odor but do not see Dreaded Orange Spots, perhaps it is your nose and not actual rancidity? Just a thought.

Do all your other soaps smell okay, or is it only this batch you pictured? Do any of them have orange or darkish-yellow spots?

If none have spots and all of them smell off, I would question my olfactory sense has gone a little off. That can happen. Some things that affect the sense of smell are St. John's Wort (a supplement), some prescription medications), some illnesses. Just FYI.

Maybe others see DOS in the pictures and I don't for some reason (my monitor? the time of day? poor lighting in my room?)

 

[Jen74]

I may be missing something, but I don't see visible DOS in those white bars of soap. If you smell an off odor but do not see Dreaded Orange Spots, perhaps it is your nose and not actual rancidity? Just a thought.

Do all your other soaps smell okay, or is it only this batch you pictured? Do any of them have orange or darkish-yellow spots?

If none have spots and all of them smell off, I would question my olfactory sense has gone a little off. That can happen. Some things that affect the sense of smell are St. John's Wort (a supplement), some prescription medications), some illnesses. Just FYI.

Maybe others see DOS in the pictures and I don't for some reason (my monitor? the time of day? poor lighting in my room?)

Yes, there is a few with light organce spots on them. I even had my husband and dad sniff them because I thought exactly what you were saying, maybe my sense was off. But it does smell unfortuantely. The picture I took I guess did not realy show the spots to well. There are not a ton of them, but you can see random light organge colored spots of some of the bars. This was my batch that I made a month ago and yes, all of them smell rancid. I had a few that were from a previous batch and even some of them went , but not all of them which is odd....

 

[earlene]

It was probably my eyes, combined with the lighting last night. I do see a hint of the yellowish orange spot on the single bar this morning. My eyes are getting old and although still in the early stages, cataracts are developing, which I suspect is slowly altering the clarity of my vision.

 

[Becky1024]

I've never used palm oil, palm kernel oil or glycerin in my soaps so I may be way off base but here goes ...

In my experience, a few small DOS spots does not create a detectable rancid smell. It's only when the spots get very large or basically consume the entire bar that the bar stinks. So something else may be happening in your bars to make them smell bad.

Some of my customers with very sensitive noses have educated me that even unscented bars have a distinct odor to them. It comes from the natural odor of the oils and some are more pleasing than others. What is pleasing to one customer is not to another (the odor of shea butter in my case). I wonder if this is happening to you? Can anybody with experience in palm, palm kernel or glycerin chime in?

 

[Jen74]

I've never used palm oil, palm kernel oil or glycerin in my soaps so I may be way off base but here goes ...

In my experience, a few small DOS spots does not create a detectable rancid smell. It's only when the spots get very large or basically consume the entire bar that the bar stinks. So something else may be happeng in your bars to make them smell bad.

Some of my customers with very sensitive noses have educated me that even unscented bars have a distinct odor to them. It comes from the natural odor of the oils and some are more pleasing than others. What is pleasing to one customer is not to another (the odor of shea butter in my case). I wonder if this is happening to you? Can anybody with experience in palm, palm kernel or glycerin chime in?

The only thing is, I have made them the exact same way several times and they do not normally have this rancid smell. This is definitely rancid smell. There are a few bars that have some light orange spots on them.

 

[AliOop]

The only thing is, I have made them the exact same way several times and they do not normally have this rancid smell. This is definitely rancid smell. There are a few bars that have some light orange spots on them.

Rancidity will not necessarily be equal or even present across all bars from the same batch. I’d be more interested in finding the cause rather than why some did, and some did not.

Did the bars come in contact with sunlight or metal? Did you make them with tap water instead of distilled water? Old oils can also cause rancidity.

 

[Jen74]

Rancidity will not necessarily be equal or even present across all bars from the same batch. I’d be more interested in finding the cause rather than why some did, and some did not.

Did the bars come in contact with sunlight or metal? Did you make them with tap water instead of distilled water? Old oils can also cause rancidity.

No metal was in contact with the soap. I use distilled water when making my soaps. As for the oil, well it smells okay. The racidity seems to kick in during the curing process( like 2 weeks after it has been curing). I just think it must be a humidty issue as I never have this issue in the winter when the humidity in very low in the house( like 20's or 30's). Rght now it is spring approaching summer here in Chicago and my humidity level accroding to the guage I have is always betweem 45 and 50 percent. That is with the AC running and a fan blowing on the soaps. I am at a loss as to what to do...

 

[ResolvableOwl]

Try a batch without glycerol.

 

[Jen74]

Try a batch without glycerol.

Yes, I made some yesterday and left the glycerin out.

 

[glendam]

My only experience with quick DOS was with a ghost swirl technique soap. Soaps made before and after that one, from the same master batched oils did not have DOS. That lead me to believe the excess water from the technique played a role (that and the fact that I couldn’t add ROE or EDTA because additives were against the challenge rules). I live in a high humidity area (it’s like 91% humidity today), and at the time I did not have a dehumidifier. (It had broke down)

 

[Jen74]

My only experience with quick DOS was with a ghost swirl technique soap. Soaps made before and after that one, from the same master batched oils did not have DOS. That lead me to believe the excess water from the technique played a role (that and the fact that I couldn’t add ROE or EDTA because additives were against the challenge rules). I live in a high humidity area (it’s like 91% humidity today), and at the time I did not have a dehumidifier. (It had broke down)

I am wondering if I need to add ROE or EDTA to prevent rancidity? I hate to add anything as I am so sensitive and the less added the better for me. I would think ROE would add a odor. EDTA I have read it not the best long term to use( something about it raising cancer risks).

 

[glendam]

I am wondering if I need to add ROE or EDTA to prevent rancidity? I hate to add anything as I am so sensitive and the less added the better for me. I would think ROE would add a odor. EDTA I have read it not the best long term to use( something about it raising cancer risks).

ROE is used at a very low % (0.05% of oils), I normally need to weigh it on a jewelers scale. There is no discerning smell at the end. (I use fragrance though). EDTA is used at 0.50% of total batch. I would be curious to read about the long term cancer risk, do you remember where you read that? Most of the concerns I have read were of an environmental nature

 

[earlene]

I am wondering if I need to add ROE or EDTA to prevent rancidity? I hate to add anything as I am so sensitive and the less added the better for me. I would think ROE would add a odor. EDTA I have read it not the best long term to use( something about it raising cancer risks).

ROE is used at a very low % (0.05% of oils), I normally need to weigh it on a jewelers scale. There is no discerning smell at the end. (I use fragrance though). EDTA is used at 0.50% of total batch. I would be curious to read about the long term cancer risk, do you remember where you read that? Most of the concerns I have read were of an environmental nature

I highly recommend ROE. If you don't want to use EDTA (I do, but some don't like using EDTA), you can use Citric Acid instead.

Here is a useful link on use of antioxidants (which ROE is) and chelators (which EDTA & Citric Acid are):
https://classicbells.com/soap/rancidity.asp

 

[Jen74]

I highly recommend ROE. If you don't want to use EDTA (I do, but some don't like using EDTA), you can use Citric Acid instead.

Here is a useful link on use of antioxidants (which ROE is) and chelators (which EDTA & Citric Acid are):
https://classicbells.com/soap/rancidity.asp

Thanks for sharing. How would one keep dust off of soap while it's curing? Where do you get a good ROE? They mentioned adding it to the oil before making soap. I make HP soap. Could I add it while cooking the soap? Will it leave a fragrance in the soap?

 

[lenarenee]

Thanks for sharing. How would one keep dust off of soap while it's curing? Where do you get a good ROE? They mentioned adding it to the oil before making soap. I make HP soap. Could I add it while cooking the soap? Will it leave a fragrance in the soap?

I thought I already posted this; so sorry if this is a duplicate. I have used ROE before, and found it to have a noticeable fragrance in a cured bar of soap. I love the smell, but since I almost always use fragrances, I stopped using it because I found it was strong enough to even taint those.

 

[Jen74]

I thought I already posted this; so sorry if this is a duplicate. I have used ROE before, and found it to have a noticeable fragrance in a cured bar of soap. I love the smell, but since I almost always use fragrances, I stopped using it because I found it was strong enough to even taint those.

Oh wow, I defininitely do not want that then as I am highly sensitive to fragrances ( even some natural stuff). I have Mast cell activation syndrome which makes me super reactive which is why I use only PKO and Palm oil in my soaps as I react to most everything else. What else can I add that would help prevent my soaps from going rancid? I am guessing they are going bad because of too much humidity and lack of additives to prevent rancidity?? What are your thoughts?

 

[lenarenee]

Oh wow, I defininitely do not want that then as I am highly sensitive to fragrances ( even some natural stuff). I have Mast cell activation syndrome which makes me super reactive which is why I use only PKO and Palm oil in my soaps as I react to most everything else. What else can I add that would help prevent my soaps from going rancid? I am guessing they are going bad because of too much humidity and lack of additives to prevent rancidity?? What are your thoughts?

Jen, do you have enough soap for your use now?

I'm puzzled by this rancidity problem you're having. Unless your oils were old or contaminated when you bought them, or your crock pot is too porous and is leaching something...I don't know why your soap went rancid so quickly. Palm and palm kernel oil are not problematic oils usually.

I do suggest using a chelator. I use sodium citrate (so I don't have to calculate additional lye because of the citric acid, but if you use citric acid we'll help you with that, it's not hard), but the others are fine too.

Not knowing your hot process method; I wonder if your soap gets overcooked....and MAYBE that does something - but that's just a guess.

Try a small 1lb batch using the cold process method, SF at 2 or 3%, use a chelator

Maybe start fresh with new ingredients. Make sure all of your bowls and tools are free of oils.

Lye with as high a purity as you can get (I think you already had this - but try a new bottle)

The smell of ROE is very strong just when measuring it from the little bottle - you may not even be able to tolerate that so yeah, skip the ROE.

I have some soaps with very rich recipes including lard, shea or cocoa butter, and soft oils that I've mistreated by exposing to. very humid bathrooms, then tucking away in a forgotten drawer to pull out a year later....and rarely get DOS. I do use sodium citrate though.

Can you cure a small batch at a friend's house and see what happens? Although....might be exposed to air fresheners and perfumes there.

Have you tried using a detergent bar made with surfactants? I LOVE "This is Not Soap" for my hair! I never have to use conditioner and I have colored hair! They have unscented; but I would contact them first to make sure they grab a bar for you that hasn't been sitting on a shelf near scented ones.

 

[Jen74]

Jen, do you have enough soap for your use now?

I'm puzzled by this rancidity problem you're having. Unless your oils were old or contaminated when you bought them, or your crock pot is too porous and is leaching something...I don't know why your soap went rancid so quickly. Palm and palm kernel oil are not problematic oils usually.

I do suggest using a chelator. I use sodium citrate (so I don't have to calculate additional lye because of the citric acid, but if you use citric acid we'll help you with that, it's not hard), but the others are fine too.

Not knowing your hot process method; I wonder if your soap gets overcooked....and MAYBE that does something - but that's just a guess.

Try a small 1lb batch using the cold process method, SF at 2 or 3%, use a chelator

Maybe start fresh with new ingredients. Make sure all of your bowls and tools are free of oils.

Lye with as high a purity as you can get (I think you already had this - but try a new bottle)

The smell of ROE is very strong just when measuring it from the little bottle - you may not even be able to tolerate that so yeah, skip the ROE.

I have some soaps with very rich recipes including lard, shea or cocoa butter, and soft oils that I've mistreated by exposing to. very humid bathrooms, then tucking away in a forgotten drawer to pull out a year later....and rarely get DOS. I do use sodium citrate though.

Can you cure a small batch at a friend's house and see what happens? Although....might be exposed to air fresheners and perfumes there.

Have you tried using a detergent bar made with surfactants? I LOVE "This is Not Soap" for my hair! I never have to use conditioner and I have colored hair! They have unscented; but I would contact them first to make sure they grab a bar for you that hasn't been sitting on a shelf near scented ones.
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Thank you for responding.
I ordered a fresh container of lye and should get it soon. I have like 4 small bars left to use of my previous batch that was okay. I just need to make fresh so it can cure. I find that I get most irritated down below with most all store bought soaps. This one I make doesn't seem to irritate me for some reason which is why I stick with it. I am going to try curing my soap in two different spots and see what happens. I got another fan and will use that in the other spot to keep air flowing. This is so frustrating. How much sounim citrate do you add to your soaps? Where do you purchase it? Also would I just add to my soap while mixing the oils when cooking them with the HP?

 

[lenarenee]

I buy my sodium citrate from Amazon (it's used to make cheese sauce!) Right now I have Anthony's brand. I add 2 % sodium citrate per 1000 grams of oils. So that's 20 grams per 1000. ( the suggested usage rate is 1% to 4%)

I add the sodium citrate to my "naked" distilled water right after I've measured it out. Stir well to get it dissolving. Then I let it sit for 5 minutes to make sure it thoroughly dissolves, and stir it again. It's not difficult to dissolve, but I once didn't have all of it dissolved, and it caused problems. AFTER it's thoroughly dissolved. If I'm adding sugar, I add that next and also make sure it's fully dissolved. Then adding the lye comes next.

It must be frustrating - but I admire your perseverance! If I can think of a spot in my house where I can cure a batch without it being exposed to any hairsprays, perfumes, and other scents, I'll make you a batch.....just in case. I know what it's like to have a sensitivity and NOT have good soap!

Which reminds me; what brand of palm oils are you using? Some of them, including palm kernel oil, have to have the entire container melted down, stirred well to incorporate the heavier fatty acids that collect at the bottom, before measuring, (and this has to be done every time). Some are hydrogenated and don't need mixing.