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hozhed

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Could one of you guys tell me EXACTLY what the term "conditioning" is? its in soap calc, and it has a medium range and I always wondered how those range numbers came about?
 
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IrishLass

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To me, 'conditioning' points to how mildly or intensely a soap is going to cleanse me. All soap is going to clean, no matter what, but how powerful will the level of cleansing be? That's how I look at it.


IrishLass :)
 

Obsidian

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I don't know if anyone can really give you the exact meaning, it seems to be one of those properties that people interpret differently. I always figured it had something to do with how soft it leaves your skin so used to go for a high number. Now I think it a pretty useless number, my lower conditioning soaps are better then most of the higher numbered ones I made.
 

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I agree with ISG the conditioning is how dry your skin going to be after using soap.
If my memory serves me, depending on what oil your are using will depend how oil stripping the bar can be.

for this matter we add the super fattinig. to add back some oils so they are imparted to the skin while we bathe.
 

hozhed

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I agree with ISG the conditioning is how dry your skin going to be after using soap.
If my memory serves me, depending on what oil your are using will depend how oil stripping the bar can be.

for this matter we add the super fattinig. to add back some oils so they are imparted to the skin while we bathe.


"If my memory serves me, depending on what oil your are using will depend how oil stripping the bar can be. "


But wouldn't that be what the "cleansing" range would be for? Its a bit confusing to me.
 

zolveria

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If we use a soap made of coconut oil alone. This will dry our skin..

Naturally COCONUT oil if used regularly on skin will dry out anyone skin.



"If my memory serves me, depending on what oil your are using will depend how oil stripping the bar can be. "


But wouldn't that be what the "cleansing" range would be for? Its a bit confusing to me.
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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I wonder if it has more to do with how much it offsets the cleaning figure - so you have a 22 on cleansing and you're not happy with the result - you could lower your cleansing oils (such as co) or up your conditioning oils.......?
 

MorpheusPA

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Technically, it's the emollient content, or the stuff left behind that slows water evaporation and makes skin feel soft.

Functionally, in a wash off product, I can't say I pay very much attention to the conditioning number. Instead, I keep cleansing lower to avoid stripping oils from the skin--the range starts at 12, most of my favorite soaps are 12 or below on the cleansing scale.
 

cerelife

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If we use a soap made of coconut oil alone. This will dry our skin..

Naturally COCONUT oil if used regularly on skin will dry out anyone skin.
I have to politely 'agree to disagree' with you on this one. A 100% coconut oil with a 20% SF is actually a very nice, very gentle, non-drying soap.
I think it was maybe IrishLass (?) who originally shared this recipe a few years ago.
Rules are made to be broken, and thinking outside the box is at least half the fun of soapmaking!
 

Susie

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This is a copy of DeeAnna's post from some time back. I can't find the post link, but I had copied it elsewhere.

"When evaluating a soap recipe, you can look at the individual amounts of each fatty acid (myristic, lauric, stearic, palmitic, oleic, ricinoleic, linoleic, linolenic, etc) to determine the effect of each fatty acid on the soap ... or you can use the SoapCalc "numbers" to do much the same thing, only simpler. Problem is ... and I've said this elsewhere on SMF ... is that the names of the SoapCalc numbers are misleading. It is also important to remember that the fatty acid profile and the SoapCalc numbers do not account for the effect of superfat nor the effect of additives (sugar, milk, honey, sodium lactate, etc.)

So, okay, now let's look at the numbers for at a single fat -- let's choose your cocoa butter and assume we're going to make a soap from this fat. Cocoa butter has a fatty acid profile that looks something like this:

Lauric 0
Myristic 0
Palmitic 25-35% (average is about 30%)
Stearic 28-38% (average is about 33%)
Ricinoleic 0
Oleic 29-41% (average is about 36%)
Linoleic 2-7% (average is about 4%)
Linolenic 0

Lots of numbers, right? Let's look at how SoapCalc groups those numbers into fewer bits of useful information:

Hardness 61
Cleansing 0
Condition 38
Bubbly 0
Creamy 61

So now, okay, how does a person translate from the fatty acid profile to the Soapcalc numbers? Here's how:

Hardness: The hardness value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic + Palmitic + Stearic acids.

These are the saturated fatty acids. The Hardness number is a measure of the physical hardness-like-a-rock. It tells you how relatively easy it will be to unmold a particular soap after saponification. It does NOT necessarily tell you how long-lived the soap will be -- I'll get to that in a bit.

Hardness number from the fatty acid profile (above) = 0% + 0% + 30% + 33% = 63%.
Soapcalc Hardness = 61%.

Is the difference between 63% and 61% important? Nope, not too much. Keep in mind that any fatty acid profile for any particular fat is only an estimate. The SoapCalc folks calculated their Hardness number from slightly different data than we are using. Bottom line -- don't agonize over differences of a few percentage points.

Cleansing: The cleansing value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic acids.

It is a measure of how water soluble the soap is -- meaning it is a measure of how easily the soap dissolves in difficult situations such as hard water, cold water, or salt water. The Cleansing number does NOT tell you whether the soap will actually get your skin clean, which is the usual misinterpretation of the Cleansing number. A soap with a Cleansing value of zero will clean your skin; it is just not as water soluble in hard/cold/salty water as a soap with a high Cleansing value.

Cleansing number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Cleansing = 0%

Conditioning: The conditioning value is the sum of Oleic + Ricinoleic + Linoleic + Linolenic acids.

These are the monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids. The conditioning value is, to the best of my understanding, a measure of the soap's ability to soften and soothe the skin. The "anti tight-and-dry" property, so to speak.

Conditioning number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 36% + 4% + 0% = 40%
SoapCalc Conditioning = 38%

Bubbly: The Bubbly value is the sum of the Lauric + Myristic + Ricinoleic acids.

This is a measure of how much loose, fluffy lather is produced. A "bubbly" lather is produced quickly by a soap, but doesn't last long.

Remember that the first two fatty acids make a soap that is very soluble in water, so it makes sense that a soap that has a lot of these two fatty acids would make lots of lather, right?

Ricinoleic acid does not make soap that lathers well on its own, but combined with other fatty acids, it enhances the lather the other fatty acids produce. Does a low or zero Bubbly number mean the soap doesn't lather at all? Nope -- just that the soap might not have a lot of fluffy big bubbles.

Bubbly number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Bubbly = 0%

Creamy: The Creamy value is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic + Ricinoleic acids.

Palmitic and stearic are the fatty acids that produce lather that is fine textured (like whipped cream) and longer lived. Ricinoleic, as mentioned before, enhances lather, whether it be big, bubbly lather or dense, creamy lather.

Creamy number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Creamy number = 61%

Long life: The longevity of a soap is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic acids.

Palmitic and stearic acids create a soap that is relatively hard and relatively insoluble in water.

Long-lasting number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Long-lasting number = ???

I said I'd get back to this issue. SoapCalc numbers do not directly measure longevity. Many people confuse the Hardness number as being a measure of how long lived the soap is, but that is not strictly correct. If you are working in SoapCalc, the fastest way to estimate the Long-lasting number is this:

SoapCalc Long-lasting number = Hardness number - Cleansing number

For cocoa butter, it's a no-brainer -- the Hardness number is the same as the Long-lasting number. For a Coconut Oil soap, the story is quite different:

Hardness = 79
Cleansing = 67
Long-lasting = 79 - 67 = 12

Compare that to 63 for cocoa butter. Bottom line -- a coconut oil soap will not last nearly as long as a cocoa butter soap, all other things being equal.


Okay, whew, I quit for now!"
 
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hozhed

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This is a copy of DeeAnna's post from some time back. I can't find the post link, but I had copied it elsewhere.

"When evaluating a soap recipe, you can look at the individual amounts of each fatty acid (myristic, lauric, stearic, palmitic, oleic, ricinoleic, linoleic, linolenic, etc) to determine the effect of each fatty acid on the soap ... or you can use the SoapCalc "numbers" to do much the same thing, only simpler. Problem is ... and I've said this elsewhere on SMF ... is that the names of the SoapCalc numbers are misleading. It is also important to remember that the fatty acid profile and the SoapCalc numbers do not account for the effect of superfat nor the effect of additives (sugar, milk, honey, sodium lactate, etc.)

So, okay, now let's look at the numbers for at a single fat -- let's choose your cocoa butter and assume we're going to make a soap from this fat. Cocoa butter has a fatty acid profile that looks something like this:

Lauric 0
Myristic 0
Palmitic 25-35% (average is about 30%)
Stearic 28-38% (average is about 33%)
Ricinoleic 0
Oleic 29-41% (average is about 36%)
Linoleic 2-7% (average is about 4%)
Linolenic 0

Lots of numbers, right? Let's look at how SoapCalc groups those numbers into fewer bits of useful information:

Hardness 61
Cleansing 0
Condition 38
Bubbly 0
Creamy 61

So now, okay, how does a person translate from the fatty acid profile to the Soapcalc numbers? Here's how:

Hardness: The hardness value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic + Palmitic + Stearic acids.

These are the saturated fatty acids. The Hardness number is a measure of the physical hardness-like-a-rock. It tells you how relatively easy it will be to unmold a particular soap after saponification. It does NOT necessarily tell you how long-lived the soap will be -- I'll get to that in a bit.

Hardness number from the fatty acid profile (above) = 0% + 0% + 30% + 33% = 63%.
Soapcalc Hardness = 61%.

Is the difference between 63% and 61% important? Nope, not too much. Keep in mind that any fatty acid profile for any particular fat is only an estimate. The SoapCalc folks calculated their Hardness number from slightly different data than we are using. Bottom line -- don't agonize over differences of a few percentage points.

Cleansing: The cleansing value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic acids.

It is a measure of how water soluble the soap is -- meaning it is a measure of how easily the soap dissolves in difficult situations such as hard water, cold water, or salt water. The Cleansing number does NOT tell you whether the soap will actually get your skin clean, which is the usual misinterpretation of the Cleansing number. A soap with a Cleansing value of zero will clean your skin; it is just not as water soluble in hard/cold/salty water as a soap with a high Cleansing value.

Cleansing number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Cleansing = 0%

Conditioning: The conditioning value is the sum of Oleic + Ricinoleic + Linoleic + Linolenic acids.

These are the monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids. The conditioning value is, to the best of my understanding, a measure of the soap's ability to soften and soothe the skin. The "anti tight-and-dry" property, so to speak.

Conditioning number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 36% + 4% + 0% = 40%
SoapCalc Conditioning = 38%

Bubbly: The Bubbly value is the sum of the Lauric + Myristic + Ricinoleic acids.

This is a measure of how much loose, fluffy lather is produced. A "bubbly" lather is produced quickly by a soap, but doesn't last long.

Remember that the first two fatty acids make a soap that is very soluble in water, so it makes sense that a soap that has a lot of these two fatty acids would make lots of lather, right?

Ricinoleic acid does not make soap that lathers well on its own, but combined with other fatty acids, it enhances the lather the other fatty acids produce. Does a low or zero Bubbly number mean the soap doesn't lather at all? Nope -- just that the soap might not have a lot of fluffy big bubbles.

Bubbly number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Bubbly = 0%

Creamy: The Creamy value is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic + Ricinoleic acids.

Palmitic and stearic are the fatty acids that produce lather that is fine textured (like whipped cream) and longer lived. Ricinoleic, as mentioned before, enhances lather, whether it be big, bubbly lather or dense, creamy lather.

Creamy number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Creamy number = 61%

Long life: The longevity of a soap is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic acids.

Palmitic and stearic acids create a soap that is relatively hard and relatively insoluble in water.

Long-lasting number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Long-lasting number = ???

I said I'd get back to this issue. SoapCalc numbers do not directly measure longevity. Many people confuse the Hardness number as being a measure of how long lived the soap is, but that is not strictly correct. If you are working in SoapCalc, the fastest way to estimate the Long-lasting number is this:

SoapCalc Long-lasting number = Hardness number - Cleansing number

For cocoa butter, it's a no-brainer -- the Hardness number is the same as the Long-lasting number. For a Coconut Oil soap, the story is quite different:

Hardness = 79
Cleansing = 67
Long-lasting = 79 - 67 = 12

Compare that to 63 for cocoa butter. Bottom line -- a coconut oil soap will not last nearly as long as a cocoa butter soap, all other things being equal.


Okay, whew, I quit for now!"

Excellent Susie, thank you very much, and the rest of you as well. I think I am getting it now. I think. :lol:
 

IrishLass

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I have to politely 'agree to disagree' with you on this one. A 100% coconut oil with a 20% SF is actually a very nice, very gentle, non-drying soap.
I think it was maybe IrishLass (?) who originally shared this recipe a few years ago.
Rules are made to be broken, and thinking outside the box is at least half the fun of soapmaking!
I agree. I love the 100% CO with 20% superfat and don't find it drying at all. It's not everyone's cup of tea for sure, but for what it's worth, my family and I love it.

I wish I could take credit for being the one who originated this lovely, broken rule of a recipe, but it was actually a fellow soaper over at the Dish (username Deity12_05) that came up with the idea several years back and shared it with everyone and gave us all permission to share it with others. If I remember right, she kind of stumbled upon it while trying to formulate a soap for an older family member who had trouble with certain kinds of soap. In any case, the unruly soap actually ended up being the only soap that her family member was able to use without coming down with skin problems. It's a perfect example of how individual skin-type comes into play and how one's heavenly dream bar can be somebody else's hellish nightmare. It's one of those soaps that one either loves or hates. There's no middle ground. lol

IrishLass :)
 

The Efficacious Gentleman

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It is a great example for people to keep in mind - 100% CO soap with a normal SF will likely be horrid for most people, because sodium cocoate (CO soap) is really really drying. CO oil, on the other hand, isn't!

There can be a big difference between what an oil will do when topically applied vs what the salt of that oil (soap) will do. You can't always compare the oil properties to the soap and vice-versa
 

Lion Of Judah

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I have to politely 'agree to disagree' with you on this one. A 100% coconut oil with a 20% SF is actually a very nice, very gentle, non-drying soap.
I think it was maybe IrishLass (?) who originally shared this recipe a few years ago.
Rules are made to be broken, and thinking outside the box is at least half the fun of soapmaking!
just wanted to add as well that different skin types plays a great factor in how everyone reacts to the same soap formula . some can not tolerate CO pass 15% while others can take it to the limit. the same with Castor , some feels pass 5% gives a sticky soap while i love it at 10%. some love high conditioning while some skin types can get away with low numbers on the calculator.
when i look at "conditioning" on the soap calc i look at it in terms of how much moisture is retained after a shower/bath as oppose to being squeaky clean and getting dry skin few hours later. i always like numbers in the 50's and 60's range while my cleansing numbers are in the teens .

ETA { <<< someone got to tell me what that means , hope i'm using it in the right sense here} i posted this reply before reading page 2 which i think bought this to it's proper head nicely , so please excuse me if it seemed somewhat redundant of me :) , thank you :)
 
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DeeAnna

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I'm going to add something more to this discussion by repeating a post I made some time ago --

...In doing more reading since I wrote my (apparently famous!) post [meaning the post that Susie shared above], I have started to learn more about some of the underlying issues about the soapcalc "cleansing" and "conditioning" properties of soap.

The short answer: For a mild bar, I think it is more important to have a fairly low or zero cleansing number (myristic and lauric acids plus the even-shorter chain fatty acids such as caprylic, caproic, butyric, etc.) than it is to have an unusually high conditioning number (oleic, linoleic, linolenic, ricinoleic acids).

The longer answer: The "cleansing" fatty acids are irritants to the skin, because these short-chain fatty acids have the ability to remove the fats and proteins within the non-living protective surface layer of our skin (the stratum corneum). These fats and proteins help the stratum corneum remain smooth and elastic and maintain a good protective barrier over the underlying living tissues.

The skin responds to this irritation by feeling tight, itchy, and dry and eventually becoming red, irritated, swollen, and rough. This damage is additive, meaning the more we wash, the more irritation that is caused. Low humidity in winter or living in an arid climate makes this damage even more likely.

The longer chain fatty acids (stearic, palmitic, oleic, linoleic, linolenic, etc.) are not as able to cause this type of damage, so they're called the "conditioning" fatty acids. The name is misleading, in my opinion, because soap really cannot condition the skin. Conditioning is the blanket property of adding humectancy (water) to the stratum corneum, providing occlusion (barrier to abrasion or water evaporation), and adding emollience (replacing lost fats), as well as smoothing and soothing the skin.

Some of the additives in a soap can add some conditioning, but soap itself cannot. Soap cleans. Period. Maybe the "conditioning" fatty acids should have been called "non-stripping" and the myristic and lauric acids should have been called the "stripping" fatty acids.

Some people's skin is more sensitive to this type of damage than others. That is most likely why some soapers can't see all the fuss about using, say, 30% coconut oil in a recipe while others shudder at the thought of anything over 10%. Or why some soapers formulate a wintertime soap that is less cleansing than their summertime soap.

Why does a soap with certain conditioning numbers and cleansing numbers feel different than another soap with the exact same numbers, all other things being equal? I think you then have to look at the actual fatty acid analyses of the two recipes. A soap with, say, 20% oleic and 10% linoleic and a second soap with 10% oleic and 20% linoleic will have the exact same score for "conditioning". Might they feel different on the skin? Certainly!...
 

tarkus

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I made 2 soaps conditioning 10 and 80. The difference I can see is how dry is as other members mentioned already. same thing on cleansing. soaps with 0 cleansing still does clean but higher cleansing such as 70 or higher can clean better.
 

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