Question about aloe butter,avocado butters....

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CTAnton

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I see various recipes incorporating butters other than shea and cocoa in their cp soap recipes. Our "special process" is what is told to the consumer. And yet you read the ingredients as, in the case of avocado butter, avocado oil and vegetable shortening.....sounds like in a recipe adding avocado oil and some Crisco would get you to the same place and greatly reduced price. So the question is do any of you consider any of these butters worthy of their high costs....Thanks folks!
 

Susie

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I, like many others, went through this whole phase of "this oil/butter costs more, so it MUST be good for soap!!!" phase. I tried most of the more expensive oils I could find without ordering them. This included some very expensive trips to GNC. Then, once the soaps were cured, I sent them out to testers without telling them what was the difference. (BTW, do not label them 1,2,3, etc or A, B, C, as the 1 and A are almost always chosen.) Every last person rated the high lard, no special oil, milk, additive soap the best. Every last one. It was a shocker. So, I do not put expensive oils or butters in soap for my family and friends any longer without something being tested. I am now gearing up to sell, so I am doing a lot of those sorts of "special oil" soaps strictly for label appeal. But I KNOW it is for label appeal, only. So I don't expect any special properties.
 

mx6inpenn

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The only "special" oil I use with regularity is avocado oil. It's still a relatively inexpensive oil, but my testers preferred it added. And it does add label appeal. I also use shea and cocoa butters in a few recipes, a vegan recipe without palm and for label appeal.

It was very early in my soaping experience that I saw a recipe from Soap Queen that made me question butters. It called for coffee butter, which wasn't on SoapCalc, so I looked it and some others, lemon butter was another, up. When I saw they were nothing more than palm and/or soy with a bit of the "special oil". At that point I decided any butters I wanted to try would have to be true butters, like cocoa, shea, mango or kokum. Otherwise the expense is not justified, IMO, because I could get the same results much cheaper using something else.
 
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Nao

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Not that I am very experienced or anything but I can't image it would make any difference mixing it up yourself. Though it might take som experimenting to get the proportions right.
You would also make sure that your own avocado butter is identical to the avocado butter of the soap calculator so you won't end up with the wrong amount of lye or anything else for that matter.
 

BrewerGeorge

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... At that point I decided any butters I wanted to try would have to be true butters, like cocoa, shea, mango or kokum. Otherwise the expense is not justified, IMO, because I could get the same results much cheaper using something else.
I think this bears repeating. If it's not a nut or a seed, it's not a real butter. (Mango butter is from the seed inside the fruit.) Avocado butter is simply hydrogenated like Crisco - some of the oleic acids in avocado oil turned to stearic acid - so it's spreadable instead of pouring. Everything else is going to be vegetable shortening and some flavor/scent.
 

toxikon

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I used shea and cocoa butter when I first started, because I (mistakenly) thought the great qualities of those butters would transfer to soap. Nope. I do enjoy playing with additives still, but no longer use expensive oils/butters. Lard, coconut oil, avocado oil, olive oil and castor oil are the only ones I've been buying lately.
 

BrewerGeorge

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I used shea and cocoa butter when I first started, because I (mistakenly) thought the great qualities of those butters would transfer to soap. Nope. I do enjoy playing with additives still, but no longer use expensive oils/butters. Lard, coconut oil, avocado oil, olive oil and castor oil are the only ones I've been buying lately.
Butters (real ones) ARE useful in smallish quantities to harden soap if you won't use animal fats, and a hint of the scent of natural cocoa butter will carry through an unscented bar, but all the great soothing qualities are gone.
 

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I've used BB's Avocado butter in both soap and lotion. It is nice in both but I won't buy them again. I would be better off, money wise, adding crisco to my recipes along with avocado oil.
 

penelopejane

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My testers can tell the difference between 30-20% AO and none in a soap.
The can also tell the difference between a soap with or without shea butter.
Sometimes they can't define what the difference is they just like it.
I don't agree that the soothing qualities of say shea are lost because of the lye because I've had comments back that it leaves their skin less dry and less irritated.

This is a pretty small sample of people so it's in no way conclusive.

And who is to say that one sample soap might have been better made than the other sample?
 
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cmzaha

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As Brewer George mentioned, Avocado is hydrogenated avocado to make it thick and spreadable. It is Not Crisco (hydrogenated palm and soybean). It is pure avocado oil. My side by side testers do notice a difference with avocado, and although, it it going up steadily in price I am still using it in the 20% range. I do not bother with butters that are a combination of hydrogenated vegetable oils and butters. I do have to back track a bit, some suppliers do sell an avocado butter that is hydrogenated vegetable oils and avocado oil, that I would not purchase. You have to read the discription. I buy pure hydrogenated avocado oil when I want the butter for thickening properties
 

dixiedragon

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Where is this hydrogenated avocado? The ones I see are avocado oil mixed with vegetable oil? If I could buy 100% hydrogenated avocado oil I think I would. It would be nice in lip balms, whipped butters etc.
 

redhead1226

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I did all of that when I first started. And I slowly (years) started to realize that my best soap doesnt have many expensive items or butters. Im addicted to lard. I also do not use these so-called butters as they are really hydrogenated oils like crisco ( aloe butter). I used aloe gel and crisco is a soap that I used the aloe butter in and there was no difference. I didn't like it anyway.

Additionally, as an herbalist and certified aromatherapist (for over 10 years) I do not use my expensive essential oils in soap for a long time now as they only provide scent and not the therapeutic benefits that essential oils are to be used for. With the temperatures that soap heats up to they do not survive. Im sure Ill get an argument about this but I can assure you in my circles we all agree. Ofcourse it is not a scientific proven theory, but it is the consensus among us.

I do however love avocado oil. Most of my expensive oils, butters and EO's go into my herbal preparations where they do the most good. Just my 2 cents worth.
 

earlene

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Where is this hydrogenated avocado? The ones I see are avocado oil mixed with vegetable oil? If I could buy 100% hydrogenated avocado oil I think I would. It would be nice in lip balms, whipped butters etc.
I did a Google search and found a couple of links. The first one has links to suppliers where you can buy it. Scroll down to about 1/3 of the way down the page.

http://www.thegoodscentscompany.com/data/vg1666451.html

http://www.camdengrey.com/essential-oils/avocado-butter.html
 

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IrishLass

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Right here, silly!
I've never used any of the specially created butters in my soap (aka- coffee butter, aloe butter, etc....), but I do utilize real butters such as mango butter, kokum butter, illipe butter, and cocoa butter in different of my soap formulas- normally 1 butter to any single formula, but my shave croap contains 2 butters (illipe and kokum) because that particular formula requires a certain high amount of stearic to make it the wonderful formula that my hubby says it is, but I don't want all my required stearic coming from the pure stearic acid flakes that I also incorporate into it. I like having the other fatty acids from the butters in there, too.

Having said that, though, I do use some of the specially created butters in different of my lip balm formulas (specifically aloe butter, orange butter, coffee butter, and sweet almond butter- all from MMS). One of these days in the near future, though, I'll be experimenting with making my own coffee butter out of roughly ground/crushed coffee beans and shea butter and/or natural cocoa butter. I'm very excited to give that a go.

Additionally, as an herbalist and certified aromatherapist (for over 10 years) I do not use my expensive essential oils in soap for a long time now as they only provide scent and not the therapeutic benefits that essential oils are to be used for. With the temperatures that soap heats up to they do not survive. Im sure Ill get an argument about this but I can assure you in my circles we all agree. Ofcourse it is not a scientific proven theory, but it is the consensus among us.

I do not write this to be argumentative (since I also choose not to use EOs in my soap), but for educational purposes I just wanted to post a link to the interesting and enlightening discussion between the wonderful Robert Tisserand (highly esteemed in the aromatherapy field) and Dr. Kevin Dunn (Chemical Physicist and author of Scientific Soapmaking) over this very issue: http://roberttisserand.com/2011/06/essential-oils-in-soap-interview-with-kevin-dunn/


IrishLass :)
 

redhead1226

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I do not write this to be argumentative (since I also choose not to use EOs in my soap), but for educational purposes I just wanted to post a link to the interesting and enlightening discussion between the wonderful Robert Tisserand (highly esteemed in the aromatherapy field) and Dr. Kevin Dunn (Chemical Physicist and author of Scientific Soapmaking) over this very issue: http://roberttisserand.com/2011/06/essential-oils-in-soap-interview-with-kevin-dunn/


IrishLass :)[/QUOTE]

Thank you Irishlass - I would never think it argumentative to have any discussion where others have an opinion different than mine. Its how we learn. I have read that article before. He makes some interesting points but he also agrees with the heat issue and EO's holding up. I have always thought it is better utilized in leave on products to get the full benefit, especially with how high priced true therapeutic grade EO's are. Thank you!!
 

earlene

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The Camden Gray entry:
INCI Name: Avocado Butter (Persae Gratissima) (and) hydrogenated non-gmo soybean oil. SAP Value 177 - 198. Shelf life: 1 yr.

So it seems to me you could make your own by blending avocado oil with Crisco.

My error! I only read this part: "Avocado Butter is obtained from the fruit of the Avocado tree (Persea Gratissima) which grows in sub-tropical regions of the world. The butter is created from avocado fruit oil through a unique hydrogenation process which yields a soft, yellow-green butter with mild odor and excellent melting properties which is suitable for skin care."

And did not read to the next paragraph, which ends with, "INCI Name: Avocado Butter (Persae Gratissima) (and) hydrogenated non-gmo soybean oil"

So, I guess buyer beware and READ everything, would be in order.
 

Susie

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We're all human.

I use EOs in soap. I love blending them with each other and with FOs to obtain better scents. I don't think you can get those exact scents any other way. But I am not trying to get any sort of therapeutic effect from them. So, I just like the smell.

I use cocoa and shea butter in lip balm and lotion bars. They make lovely leave on products.
 

SaltedFig

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I've never used any of the specially created butters in my soap (aka- coffee butter, aloe butter, etc....), but I do utilize real butters such as mango butter ...
I was chatting with a supplier here about Mango butter just today, and they've decided to stop carrying it due to the speed that it oxidises - their peroxide tests show that it oxidises incredibly fast and as a result they found it wasn't worth keeping for the amount they throw out (for falling below standards).

Does your Mango Butter oxidise, or go rancid quickly in soaps?
 

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