Premature Ageing / DOS of Lard Soap

Discussion in 'Lye-Based Soap Forum' started by topofmurrayhill, Jul 11, 2016.

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  1. Jul 11, 2016 #1

    topofmurrayhill

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    So this is interesting. It's 80/20 soap made with Fanny and Flo leaf lard, their high end product. It's rapidly going orange and smelling off after hardly more than 3 months. It started off quite white, as you can see if you search for "piggy" in the photo forum. I made this batch with EDTA but no antioxidant.

    1468202301943-1946192372.jpg
     
  2. Jul 11, 2016 #2

    Dana89

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    I have no answer to your question, but I have to say that is the cutest lard soap! I love the piggy's!
     
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  3. Jul 11, 2016 #3

    jules92207

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    That is a cute soap! What did you cure the soaps on?
     
  4. Jul 11, 2016 #4

    CaraBou

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    Huh. What was the other 20%?

    Lesson learned I guess, the hard way. Just curious, what made you think the leaf lard would be worth the expense in soap?

    Well, it's likely still good suds. But you better wash away (with) those cute little piggies - sooner than later!
     
  5. Jul 11, 2016 #5

    topofmurrayhill

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    The 20% was CO. Another board member gifted the leaf lard for me to try. I don't know if it was the type of lard or how it's rendered, or something else. Being artisanal stuff it doesn't have any stabilizers and I only used a chelator. I'm glad I didn't add an antioxidant because this is eye opening.
     
  6. Jul 11, 2016 #6

    topofmurrayhill

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    A plastic tray.
     
  7. Jul 11, 2016 #7

    fuzz-juzz

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    I've had no luck with lard. Shop bought, home rendered.. it breaks out in DOS after 2-3 months. Not as bad as yours though I must admit. But I keep my SF low.
     
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  8. Jul 11, 2016 #8

    ngian

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    Why do you feel glad about not adding ROE? Cause you wouldn't buy much time for avoiding rancidity?
     
  9. Jul 11, 2016 #9

    topofmurrayhill

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    ROE in combination with EDTA could buy a lot of time, but I would guess not enough to make it a quality soap. The sooner I find out the better, because I wouldn't want to use an oil so prone to oxidation.

    Most basic soaping oils can be used with distilled water and no antioxidant without anything dramatic happening. This instance was disastrously dramatic, and it took very little time.

    During the induction period, I noticed the soaps weren't staying as white as I expected, but the change was very gradual. Then I was away less than 2 weeks and today I found the soaps had bloomed orange and gotten a little weepy. Their previously strong fragrance has faded with the color change.
     
  10. Jul 11, 2016 #10

    navigator9

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    I wonder what would cause your soap to discolor so evenly along the edges like that, instead of in the usual spots. It's so discouraging when you make a really nice soap, and then have DOS rear its ugly head. I hope it doesn't get so bad that you're not able to use it.
     
  11. Jul 11, 2016 #11

    BlackDog

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    This is how my little tester bars looked - not spots bit orange all over. Were they exposed to sunlight?
     
  12. Jul 11, 2016 #12

    topofmurrayhill

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    Nope they're in a basement workshop without much light when I'm not there. I think it's just the lard. I was thinking yours were DOS.
     
  13. Jul 11, 2016 #13

    Dahila

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    strange, I have two or three years old soaps and no DOS. I use lard in every, almost every of my soap, but not such high percentage. i use 25 lard 25 tallow, 30 OO , 5 castor 15 CO
    I think it may be FO or the plastic, I cure them on parchment paper, never on metal or plastic.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
  14. Jul 11, 2016 #14

    Seawolfe

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    What was your scent? I have had that happen with 2 soaps, one where I used a tea tree oil from Trader Joes that wasnt an essential oil, and one where I used an odd fragrance oil. Mind you, they were more like 65% lard, but they looked exactly like that - orange and sticky.

    All of my other lard soaps are fine even a year or more out. But the lard I use does have BHT or something in it for sure. I always blamed the failures on the scents, but I suppose I could have gotten a bad batch of lard...
     
  15. Jul 11, 2016 #15

    Obsidian

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    Ill have to dig out my last 100% lard bath to see how its doinf but last time I checked, it was perfectly fine. I think I made it around a year ago.

    EDIT: just checked, my 100% lard soap was made april 2015 and its still perfect. One bar has one teeny tiny speck of DOS so its going into the shower to get used.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
  16. Jul 11, 2016 #16

    Steve85569

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    I am suspicious that the fragrance is the culprit, but then again all the lard I use has a tiny bit of bha or bht to prevent spoilage.
     
  17. Jul 11, 2016 #17

    ngian

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    I think that apart from the storage conditions that affect soap's rancidity, homemade rendered Tallow / lard is more prone to DOS as they don't have any antioxidant / preservative ingredients as the commercial ones do.
     
  18. Jul 11, 2016 #18

    lenarenee

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    Any idea how old the leaf lard was? Was is vacuumed packed, or in a Ziploc?

    I haven't soaped with Fannie and Flo's leaf lard, but have with their other 2 types of lard. Been watching them like a hawk, wondering if the lack of bht or citric acid will bring on early dos. I've got 3 - 9 month old bars, but none have dos.

    I too thought the pattern of the dos was odd - being around the outside edges. I had a batch of low/high water soap do the same thing as yours in about 6 weeks time!
     
  19. Jul 11, 2016 #19

    topofmurrayhill

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    The FO I used is (ironically) Bramble Berry Fresh Snow from their "clear and vanilla-free" list. FO presumably would affect any oil, but there is a distinct pattern of DOS experiences with lard. It happens to some and not to others, but I think there may be something going on there.

    I have a few thoughts based on lard being a variable product, but I'm open to ideas.

    (1) Lard could vary a lot in composition depending on breed, diet, environment, area of the body and who knows what else. Some lards could have a lot more linoleic acid than others.

    (2) Industry usually inoculates lard with a tiny bit of a stabilizer cocktail that was researched and adopted decades ago. It is composed of BHA, propyl gallate and citric acid (for chelation). Whether a lard product is stabilized could make a big difference.

    (3) The rendering process is important. To whatever extent non-fat material from the animal remains in the product (especially iron-containing material, but even moisture), it could be a lot less stable.

    (4) I have noticed some lard is firm (like what I used to get in 50 lb cubes from SC) and some lard is soft and runny. I guess the difference is probably based on whether it has been hydrogenated. Hydrogenation would produce a more stable product.

    I figure if you get on the bad side of one or more of these factors, it could cause problems.

    Despite the artisanal appeal, the lard I used could be on the wrong side of multiple factors. Maybe composition of the lard, definitely stabilization and hydrogenation, and maybe the rendering technique.
     
    Last edited: Jul 11, 2016
  20. Jul 11, 2016 #20

    TheDragonGirl

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    I've had soaps do that before, but it was olive oil not lard and all the other bars made with that oil were fine
     

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