Please help me with cpls

Discussion in 'Liquid Soap and Cream Soap Forum' started by Ntrixas, Mar 7, 2018.

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  1. Mar 7, 2018 #1

    Ntrixas

    Ntrixas

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    I make liquid soap with hp..I want to try with cpls..Can you explain me the method?for example in which temperature mix the oil with the solution KOH and water..When we disolve the paste with water?can we use it immediatly?why we use glycerin?Can you suggest me a calculator with NAOH and KOH in the same time?Thanks a lot...
     
  2. Mar 7, 2018 #2

    DeeAnna

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    ...which temperature mix the oil with the solution KOH and water

    Please see these tutorials! Many of your questions will be answered --

    First place to start:
    Irish Lass: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=428988 see posts 8 and 9

    And see:
    Irish Lass tutorial 2: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=57974
    Susie: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852

    Another good resource:
    https://milesawayfarm.wordpress.com/2015/04/22/liquid-soapmaking-where-to-start/

    ...When we disolve the paste with water?

    Dilute any time after the paste is zap free

    ...can we use it immediatly?

    Yes.

    ...why we use glycerin?

    Glycerin helps the saponification to go faster at lower temperatures.
    You can make CP liquid soap with without glycerin (water only), but it helps if you start with warmer ingredients.

    ...calculator with NaOH and KOH in the same time?

    http://soapee.com
     
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  3. Mar 10, 2018 #3

    Zany_in_CO

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    TEMPS ARE IMPORTANT: (See Failor's book) Using normal technique, and following safety guidelines, combine when oils are 160°F (71°C) and lye solution is 140°F (60°C). Stir by hand, then SB (on and off) to full trace. Once you are at trace, stop there for CP. Cover and wait 2 weeks or so for it to reach full saponification.

    NOTE: Liquid Soap takes longer to reach trace: 10 - 15 minutes (Water @ 2 X KOH for CP) or up to 45 minutes or longer (Water @ 3 X KOH for HP), over Low heat. To speed things up, maintain temp at 160°F (71°C) until trace occurs. Let sit 5 minutes off heat to make sure it doesn’t separate. If it starts to puff up, that’s a good sign! But BE PREPARED. Taking good care, with gloved hands, quickly move it to the sink and stir it down.

    NOTE: Once the paste is made, you need to test it with phenolphthalein drops or use the soap-in-water test to determine any lye excess. (See Failor's book) You do this for CP as well as HP.

    You can, but it's best to sequester for 2 weeks during which time, any undesireables will rise to the top as a milky layer or separate out and settle to the bottom. This allows time to then analyze the problem and correct it before bottling up.

    To see how it's done, here's a link to Carrie's Glycerin LS:



    Replacing water with glycerin to make the KOH solution is an advanced technique which requires great care. Not recommended for Newbies due to the fact that the lye solution gets extremely hot (210°F +). and can burn (turn yellow or or even brown) quickly if you don't take it off heat at the right time. Its purpose is to get to trace and finish cooking quickly. It also makes the paste easier to dilute. If done correctly, it goes through all the phases of becoming finished soap right before your eyes in two minutes! One hour after resting, it tests neutral with Phenolphthalein drops or the Soap-in-Water test. Unfortunately, Newbies with little experience don't recognize the resulting paste as finished soap and may end up cooking it.

    NOTE: Glycerin is a solvent normally used to clarify LS during the 2-week Sequester Phase. If you use too much, it can flatten lather.

    See the link provided by DeeAnna. NOTE: Once you have your lye amount, be sure to use 3 X KOH to find the water amount needed for your lye solution.

    DILUTION: The amount of water to use to dilute the paste is a matter of personal preference. That being said, Paste made with 100% Coconut oil requires less water than paste made with 100% Olive Oil. As a general rule of thumb, use 2-3 times the weight of oils/fats for your water amount.

    NOTE: 100% Olive Oil LS takes a loooong time to reach trace (45 minutes?); a loooong time to cook (9 hours for me) before testing neutral; and as much as 4-5 X the weight of oils OR 15%-20% paste to 85%-80% water to dilute. 100% Coconut Oil LS requites 40% paste weight to 60% water to dilute. Other combos fall in between those guidelines. If a film appears on top, you need to add a bit more water and stir gently to dissolved the film. Keep good notes!

    NOTE: Neutralization with Borax, Calgon, Boric Acid, or Citric Acid isn't necessary if you bump up the lye discount (super fat) from 0% to 3% and you should still get a clear result (depending on oils used, of course.)

    HTH and HAPPY SOAPING!
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
  4. Mar 10, 2018 #4

    IrishLass

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    Ntrixas- With the cold process method of liquid soap-making (which several of us here, including myself, prefer to use over the hot process method), it is actually not necessary to have your oils and your KOH solution at specific temps. That's the beauty of the cold process method in comparison to the Failor method (explained by Zany above^^^), which uses heat.

    The links that DeeAnna provided in post #2 are excellent step-by-step tutorials on the cold-process method and will answer every question you asked in your opening post (and then some!). :)


    IrishLass :)
     
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  5. Mar 10, 2018 #5

    Zany_in_CO

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    Ntrixas: As Susie says, and in my experience, there are about as many different ways to make liquid soap as there are liquid soap makers! :D In time you will find the way that works best for you.
    Irish: While that's true, the OP asked for temps, so I provided the information requested. IME, the temps provided help to get the soap to trace faster -- a huge help to Newbies trying LS for the first time.

    Ntrixas:
    Irish Lass's tutorial is quite good and many have benefited from learning her method of making LS. :)

    TIP: When making glycerin soap, I love Carrie's method for LS high in Olive Oil (or other liquid oils) because it cuts out the long trace time and cook time needed doing it the "normal" way. I will forever be grateful to Carrie for introducing us to this method!

    For other oils, I mostly use 50% coconut oil + 50% liquid oils of choice + water. This results in clear LS, not drying at all, and, following the dilution process outlined above, I get a liquid soap that has the viscosity of commercial shampoo without having to add thickeners.

    PS: I hope this doesn't sound like I'm bragging -- I'm just saying, encouraged by Susie's post above, that this is the way I do it. :cool:
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2018
  6. Mar 10, 2018 #6

    Susie

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    It still is not necessary to have specific temperatures to make liquid soap. No matter what Failor said. Failor's methods are outdated and have many unnecessary steps. You can choose to make soap that way, but why? We now use modern soaping calculators such as Soapee.com, and do not need to neutralize because we did not make lye heavy soap.

    And the rest of us who make cold process liquid glycerin soap mix our KOH with water, then add the glycerin to the oils. Thereby preventing the browning of the glycerin, and the danger thereof. This method saves a ton of time and energy, and is much safer.

    Zany, I will thank you not to take my statements of this same old topic out of context. Failor is not the end-all, be-all of liquid soapmaking. Therefore, using my statements to prove that the Failor method is "the" way is just wrong. I made that whole thread to give people options OTHER than the Failor method.
     
  7. Mar 11, 2018 #7

    IrishLass

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    But the temps Ntrixas requested were in relation to liquid soap made via the cold process method. The temps you provided were for making liquid soap via the HP method (specifically the temps Failor uses in her HP)- a method that Ntrixas is already familiar with and currently uses, according to the opening post, but now Ntrixas wants to try the CP method this time around. The main difference between making liquid soap via the cold process method as opposed to making it via Failor's HP method is that it is not necessary to have things at a certain temp.

    IrishLass :)
     
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  8. Mar 11, 2018 #8

    DeeAnna

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    "... Once you are at trace, stop there for CP. Cover and wait 2 weeks or so for it to reach full saponification...."

    Really? It's too bad you have to wait so long -- not sure what you're doing wrong there. Mine are done within an hour using a cold process method. And that's with or without the use of glycerin.
     
  9. Mar 11, 2018 #9

    Susie

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    Exactly!! Why in the world would it take 2 weeks? I mix, test, dilute, and bottle in under 4 hours normally.
     
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  10. Mar 11, 2018 #10

    Zany_in_CO

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    If I offended, I'm truly sorry. That was not my intent. By way of explanation, I do believe teaching the basics of liquid soap making, rather than the latest method, is the best way to give Newbies a grounding, or solid understanding, from which they can experience a successful result from which they can grow.

    I'm not so sure that I would call my method the "Failor method." The world of LS making has come a long way since Failor published her book back in 2000. I joined the Yahoo LS Group in 2004. Over the years, I've witnessed most of those advances first hand. Many people on that group contributed to where LS is today, through arduous trial and error and generously sharing their results, just as you do here.

    I'm happy to have made a small contribution to that growth, in my own way. If you use 2 or 3 X KOH for your water amount, or 3% SF to eliminate the need to neutralize, or the dilution method outlined above, you have me to thank for that. If you use Alaina B's (Faith's) LS method, or the link DeeAnna posted above, and many other bloggers, they honed their methods as members of the Yahoo group. I know this because I recognize some of my words in their "how to" descriptions. It gives me great joy to know that my efforts to teach others is being paid forward.

    You may be surprised to learn that I agree that Failor's method is passé. I also would add that her book is confusing and the information is not well organized. That being said, it contains good basic information and is a great resource for troubleshooting problems.

    Taken out of context or not, Susie, I agree with what you said as quoted above, and I'll even say it about me here: I am going to share my recipes and process, and hopefully others will also. Because my way is one way, not the "right" way, or the "only" way." Obviously, you don't feel that way any more, at least that's what I'm hearing from what you said above. When you challenge the advice I share, based on my knowledge and experience, you're essentially saying your way is the right way and the only way.

    I wish you still held that belief and didn't feel the need to confront others who do things differently. There are many ways to achieve success in LS, I believe, and I respect your right to choose what works for you and for you to share that knowledge with others. If only you could do likewise, it would make it a lot easier for me to help others when I have specific knowledge that responds to whatever issue they're having.

    Namaste
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2018
  11. Mar 11, 2018 #11

    The Efficacious Gentleman

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    But do you do the same with solid soap making? When people here ask about making bar soap, I've not seen you talk about making your own potash, mixing it all up in a big pot over a fire, tasting it to see if it needs more oil or lye...........if the "latest" methods of making bar soap are good places to start from, as they are immensely more efficacious then the old methods, why doesn't the same apply to liquid soap?
     
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  12. Mar 11, 2018 #12

    Susie

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    Zany, please look again at your original reply and tell me where you gave any room for any other methods being acceptable. The whole "tone" is very didactic and dismissive of anyone else's opinion. You still tell people to use phenolphthalien, which tells no one anything useful.
     
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  13. Mar 12, 2018 #13

    Ntrixas

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    Thanks a lot..All of you
     
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  14. Mar 12, 2018 #14

    Ntrixas

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    I read all of your answers but i have some more questions..
    1) the zap test is the same as hpls?
    2)We put the glycerin in the ΚΟΗ and not the KOH in the glycerin..
    3)We heat glycerin and KOH because the KOH can't disolve in glycerin in a low temperature?
    4)If i use both NAOH and KOH the soap will be thicker?and wich rate i appropriate?
    5)In cp with NaoH we can use the soap after 4-6 weeks in cpls why we use the soap immediately?
    6)If we make the zap test and the soap is not ready what are the next steps we have to do?
    Thanks and sorry for my questions and my English..
     
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  15. Mar 12, 2018 #15

    DeeAnna

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    1) the zap test is the same as hpls?

    Not sure what you mean by hpls. Zap test: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/how-to-properly-safely-conduct-the-zap-tongue-test.63199/

    2)We put the glycerin in the ΚΟΗ and not the KOH in the glycerin..

    No! KOH is always added to the glycerin or water. Do not ever add water or glycerin to KOH (or NaOH) for safety reasons.

    3)We heat glycerin and KOH because the KOH can't disolve in glycerin in a low temperature?

    That is true. But I STRONGLY recommend you dissolve the KOH in an equal weight of water, and then add glycerin to the KOH-Water mixture. This is MUCH safer and just as effective.

    4)If i use both NAOH and KOH the soap will be thicker?and wich rate i appropriate?

    Not necessarily. Some people claim this is true, but it does not work for me.

    5)In cp with NaoH we can use the soap after 4-6 weeks in cpls why we use the soap immediately?

    Bar soap needs to cure. Liquid soap does not need to cure -- you can use it soon after it is made. Even so, I usually let diluted liquid soap rest for a few days just to make sure every last bit of saponification is done. This time will also allow any solids to float or settle out of the soap if a clear soap is important to you.

    6)If we make the zap test and the soap is not ready what are the next steps we have to do?

    If you get to that point, ask for help. The correct answer depends on why the soap is zappy.
     
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  16. Mar 12, 2018 #16

    Ntrixas

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    Thank you very much...
     
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  17. Mar 13, 2018 #17

    Susie

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    ^^^What DeeAnna said! And using dual lye does not work for me, either.
     
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