Please help me understand!

[MGM]

This has been rattling around in my head for days and I need to get it clear in my mind, so hopefully the wise ones on this board can help!

I was under the impression that anything added to a CP soap batter before it sits for 8-24 hours and turns from an oily liquid into a soapy solid undergoes saponification (except for the unsaponifables in certain compounds). So, if you mix a bunch of oils together with lye and include a 5% superfat, you can't choose which 5% of those oils will remain post-saponification: it might be olive, palm, shea butter, whatever.

Kiti says that she brings her oils + lye to trace, then adds extra oils for the superfat, and those are the oils that are then not made into soap, and remain as the superfat in the soap.

If this is true, it makes a lot more sense to use high-value oils in this way, adding them post-trace so that they escape the lye monster. However, I don't understand HOW they do indeed escape it: aren't all oils that are properly incorporated into the batter potentially saponified and you'd have no way of knowing which would and wouldn't be? Anything not properly incorporated would just be an oily mess on the bars, no? There is still the question of using high-value oils in a wash-off product, but if this "you can choose what saponifies and what superfats" is true, I will have to rethink some of my recipes, and the potential for using different oils for their skin-nourishing qualities, not their soap-making qualities.
Thanks to anyone who can clarify!

 

[cmzaha]

Nope, you cannot control what the lye will decide what oils to use and what to leave in the soap. Supposedly with HP it is a better chance but even then the lye will keep working for a while and use what oils it decides it wants. Exotic and expensive are simply going to be lost down the drain. Even if we could control the outcome of the soap what good is expensive ingredients in a wash off. Save the expensive oils for lotions and make a nice balanced bar of soap.

 

[shunt2011]

Nope, not true. With CP the lye will decide which oils to take and which to leave (SF). Saponification takes about 24 hours. The only way to maybe pick the SF is with HP but still no guarantee. And I see Carolyn responded at the same time.

 

[MGM]

Ok thanks. I was 99% sure, but it was kind of left hanging on the other thread and it kept BOTHERING me not knowing. So to sum, it *might* happen in HP, it can't happen in CP, and since it's wash-off, save your jojoba and meadowfoam and all those things. Got it!

 

[Dawni]

They say that adding your special oils as superfat works best in HP, after the cook, because the soap has already been saponified by then.

Apparently, anything you add to CP, whether it be in the beginning or end, will be eaten by the lye monster. Because it will take a couple of days for saponification in CP.

In fact, even in HP, it's not a surety that what you added after the cook retain all its properties. I still add stuff after, just in case haha.

I'll leave it to others to explain the hows and whys coz I have no idea lol

 

[dibbles]

I wonder about jojoba though, due to the high amount of unsaponifiable components.

 

[IrishLass]

Ditto what the others have said. DeeAnna has wonderfully explained in a handful of posts the chemistry behind why you can't pick and choose which oil will remain as an unscathed superfat. Soap may look static and set-in-stone once saponified and solid, but it's not. There's lots of fun stuff going on inside chemically, such as this little bugaboo called dynamic equilibrium that throws a bit of a wrench in such a wishin' and a hopin' that one's chosen superfat oil will remain untouched. No matter if the oil/fat was added up front in CP or after the fact in HP, it can't escape the ongoing dynamic equilibrium 100% unscathed. Here's one of her posts where she sheds some light on this: https://www.soapmakingforum.com/threads/why-is-soap-alkaline.42021/#post-394531

Edited to add: unsaponifiables within an oil or fat may be a different story, but the fatty acid parts of the oil/fat won't remain untouched.


IrishLass

 

[Andrew84]

I’ve been able to add oils in after a HP batch has “cooked”. It has made the bar a little softer than I’d prefer. I think there is definitely some reaction going on still, because even with HP after my soap has no more zap to it, I’ve added hibiscus flower for color, hoping to get a beautiful pink but instead the pink powder instantly changed to a very dark green color that I was not at all shooting for. It’s so hard to test or judge the PH at that point. Hope this sorta kinda helps.