Pioneer HP soap?

[Kansas Farm Girl]

I was just at a pioneer type amusement park that had a soap booth. All the soap was tightly wrapped in plastic stretch wrap. When I picked up a bar it was soft, like half melted butter. I picked up several more, the same thing. When she finally had a moment I asked her about the soap being so soft and was told that it is because she is making HP soap. She did have a large iron caldron that I could see something cooking in, or at least I assumed it was cooking. She told me that you need to take the soap home, unwrap it and let it sit for a few days to harden up. She unmolds, cuts and wraps it when it's less than 24 hours old. I mentioned that I do CP and let it cure for 4-6 weeks before using and her response was "Oh, yeah, you let it sit to lower the pH." Right then someone walked up and she was much more interested in talking to them.

She said her soap was a 100% lard soap, although the label only contained the minimum info, weight & address. When I have made HP in the crock pot it was not soft like this. I remember, just barely but I do remember, Grandma making soap out in a large pot in the yard, but I do not remember it ever being soft after she poured it into the molds. Should this type of HP soap be so soft?

 

[Belinda02]

It would depend on a number of factors. Sounds like she doesn't know what she is doing.

 

[Susie]

One of the experts is going to have to chime in here, but I am wondering if she was making lye from wood ashes. If so, and my memory does not fail me, it yielded a paste consistency soap. That may be what she is selling. Anyone have an idea?

 

[lsg]

If she was using lye made from water dripping through hardwood ashes, then the soap would probably not get really hard.

http://books.google.com/books?id=qt5Cx5PoSwgC&pg=PA55&lpg=PA55&dq=old+time+lye+soap+and+hardness+and+iron+kettle&source=bl&ots=ahCouyD0qP&sig=LFKZZTb8TutfRfhQDhM20dePAjs&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4bp-U4uBDMOzyASyy4KQDQ&ved=0CDcQ6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=old%20time%20lye%20soap%20and%20hardness%20and%20iron%20kettle&f=false

 

[Kansas Farm Girl]

She said it got hard when you took it out of the wrap. I personally do not think she knew anything about soap making except what she was told. I am guessing she worked for the company that runs the park, rather than being a "soap maker". Some of her soap was colored and scented, some white but I don't know if it was scented or not. The only way to tell was to look at the shelf if was sitting on to see if the sign there gave any info. I have tried to look up pioneer soap making and found that making your own lye can result in a paste type soap, this might have been a paste if it hadn't been tightly wrapped in plastic. I still think I would want it to be allowed to cure, but her attitude was that it was ready to go now. Does pH change with age? I have always understood that it did not, but I don't know.

 

[FlybyStardancer]

This is reminding me of a segment on Modern Marvel's "Bathroom Tech" episode... It showed a woman making soap in a very old-fashioned way. She rendered fat (either lard or tallow, I can't remember which) in a big kettle, and then I remember her mixing with a wooden paddle and added a 50/50 lye water mixture until it tasted right. I just saw this episode a few days ago and was a bit horrified. And some images afterwards seemed to imply that she was selling this soap.

It's certainly a very old-fashioned way of making soap, but not one I would trust!

 

[Tienne]

Flyby, was she doing it HP? If so, then the "taste test" might be what we call zap testing.

 

[Susie]

OK, now from you saying some of her soap was white, and some colored, I am going to go with it was not made from actual wood ashes and water. I don't know how you would get that mixture clear enough to yield white soap.

The pH does change some with age. Especially when you are talking about the first few days. It will continue to saponify once poured.

And zap testing is a perfectly valid method of testing soap for skin safety.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

OK, now from you saying some of her soap was white, and some colored, I am going to go with it was not made from actual wood ashes and water. I don't know how you would get that mixture clear enough to yield white soap.

The pH does change some with age. Especially when you are talking about the first few days. It will continue to saponify once poured.

And zap testing is a perfectly valid method of testing soap for skin safety.

But this was HP, so the pH wouldn't change.

Curious situation, but it seems like they are maybe using a lot of water and selling it early?

 

[FlybyStardancer]

Flyby, was she doing it HP? If so, then the "taste test" might be what we call zap testing.

It looked like she had taken it off the heat once she had rendered the fat. And she wasn't zap testing a cooked product, but using it to determine if she had added enough lye.

 

[FifthCap]

I do hp and I've never had them melt
Some were soft and I guess depending on how they were wrapping it could cause a mushy look so shortly after cutting. I don't know about feel, But thEn again I haven't taken them and subjected them to the heat.

I have an acquaintance that works at a park. She's a hired out actress who learns a role and plays it till the seasons out. Next season she'll do something else.

She was probably just plopped in a booth and told to mix this and that in a crash course before the park opened.

I watched the glass blowers at a park near me once and wondered how they afforded such artists.
But I guess if you can work in a top of the line "glass blowing kitchen" and probably sell the items on commission in the shop (which wetter expensive) and get a working salary you probably were not doing too bad.

 

[DeeAnna]

"... she wasn't zap testing a cooked product, but using it to determine if she had added enough lye. ..."

Yep, this type of testing was done in the "old days" to determine the alkali level in the soap. It is basically zap testing, but is used while making a soap to determine if there is enough excess alkali to saponify the fat properly. The soap solution will taste "sharp" (zap) in this case.

We normally zap test a finished soap to see if there is "no zap", meaning the alkali level is low enough, but the zap test can be used to provide the reverse information just as easily. Not sure I'd want to, but it can be done.

 

[Seawolfe]

"You see son, in the bad old days before chemicals this was all people had to clean themselves with! The inferior handmade soap was smooshy and it burned the top layer of your skin off! Then the wolves would sense your distress (and lack of skin) and take you down if you didn't make it to the house in time from bathing in the river. Then you had a 50/50 chance of surviving the infections from the leaches. This is why bathing and washing didn't really become popular until synthetic detergents were invented" <spit>

 

[songwind]

But this was HP, so the pH wouldn't change.

Curious situation, but it seems like they are maybe using a lot of water and selling it early?

Based on DeeAnna's "soap is a colloidal solid" description, I think that even HP soap would continue to (very slowly) become milder over time.

 

[Ruthie]

Based on DeeAnna's "soap is a colloidal solid" description, I think that even HP soap would continue to (very slowly) become milder over time.

Yes. That is why HP needs the same curing that CP needs. It is soap out of the pot, but curing still makes it a better soap.

 

[Kansas Farm Girl]

She did tell me it was made from lard, water and lye, not lard, water and wood ash. So I don't think she was making lye from wood ash. This is an amusement park, rides, kids, artisans, and lots of tourists with more kids. I was just curious, because everything I have read says even HP gets better with age. I don't know how much she sells, or how long it sits on her shelves before being sold. The stuff I picked up was all soft, but she may have had some that was older than the ones I picked up. I don't know if this park is open year round or just opened recently after a winter break and she's stocking up now. Whatever, I just thought this soap was odd compared to what I am used to

 

[CaraBou]

Yes, it is odd for sure. I would have had the same reaction that you did :Kitten Love: Now after reading some of these posts, I'm more curious than horrified. If it wasn't far away or an expensive entry fee, I'd consider going back and talking to her more -- and buying some. It may well be "half baked" or undesireable soap but I think I'd take some home to see if it hardens and turns into anything remotely resembling soap. It seems there is always something to learn, even if it's not something to duplicate.

 

[pamielynn]

She was probably using KOh and not NaOH. Will give you a soft bar. Plus the fact of wrapping it in plastic straight out of the mold; that's not going to help harden it up. I'm sure they want to be able to show how to make the soap and then have it so the visitors can "take home your own bar today!". You know - watch it being made, then take home a bar from that batch.

Unless it's a living museum, I'd agree that she's a hired actress and not really someone practicing their craft. But, unless that soap rocks once it's ready - they're doing the handmade soap world a disservice.