Pine Tar: HP vs. CP. WOW!

[homesteaders]

I have always made pine tar soap using hot process, but after reading so many threads and articles about how fast it moves and how difficult it is to work with, I decided to make a cold process batch today. NEVER AGAIN! What a difference!!! This was stiffer than my stiffest hp soaps. I soaped at 90 degrees F. Too hot? Too cool? I used a 30% lye concentration, which made the water as % of oil weight 26.08%. When I do HP with pine tar, I always go with the default water as % of oil weight of 38%.

I'm going back to HP for pine tar soap from now on. Pine tar really likes a crock pot or double boiler. Add a little sodium lactate, or even just some yogurt after the cook, and it pours right into the mold.

 

[psfred]

I would agree, although I've not make pine tar soap (maybe someday). Fast saponification in CP is going to make for very stiff, unweildly batter. HP is a must for stearic acid base soaps, I'd assume it was equally true for pine tar for the same reason -- lots of free fatty acids that react instantly with lye.

In HP the mixture is hot enough to stay fluid, the lower temperature of CP will result in "seized" soap which may or may not free up some as saponification finishes.

 

[DeeAnna]

If hot processing pine tar soap makes you happy, then by all means use HP. I've made about a dozen batches of pine tar soap and all were done with a CP method. It's definitely a YMMV on what process you use for this kind of soap.

I'm not terribly fond of HP, so I generally use it only for soap that's near impossible to make with a CP method, such as shave soap with stearic acid. Pine tar doesn't fall into that "near impossible" category for me.

 

[mommycarlson]

I made two batches of PT soap a few weeks ago. I did CP. I was totally prepared for what everyone says will happen, the incredible fast trace and subsequent plop into the mold. This did not happen for me, it was actually quite lovely to work with, I had time if I had wanted to, to add color or something, but I did not because everything I read said it would be impossible. I was pleasantly surprised! I started to wonder what I had done wrong!

 

[cmzaha]

I also CP Pine Tar soap with no pouring problems

 

[homesteaders]

I generally use only tallow with the pine tar in HP, so I wanted to see what would happen using the same recipe (minus the SL and yogurt). I have a good supply of free grass-fed beef fat for tallow, so that's what I use most. I love soaps made with all (or mostly) tallow, but that wasn't such a good idea for cp pine tar soap. I knew the properties of my ingredients, but I had no idea fat and lye could solidify that fast! I learned my lesson.

I made two batches of PT soap a few weeks ago. I did CP. I was totally prepared for what everyone says will happen, the incredible fast trace and subsequent plop into the mold. This did not happen for me, it was actually quite lovely to work with, I had time if I had wanted to, to add color or something, but I did not because everything I read said it would be impossible. I was pleasantly surprised! I started to wonder what I had done wrong!

mommycarlson, you have inspired me to give cp pine tar soap another try.

 

[mommycarlson]

I used DeeAnna's recipe and process, FYI I read her tutorial over and over until I felt brave enough to try it.

 

[David1pro]

I've now tried three different pine tar cold process recipes (30% in one) and I've not had any issue. They were my first soaps. If anything, I find them easier than more traditional slower soaps because there's no guesswork as to when it's ready and there's no waiting around either. Once that pine tar goes in you aren't saying, "is this trace?"... it's just a quick and easy process.

 

[Rune]

Pine tar is not all oil, but also acids and water and acetone and maybe more I can't remember. Alcohol, perhaps. I have read about it, but it is some time ago. I just think, will it help to boil the pine tar first, to boil off the water, acetone and so on? I think, but absolutely don't know, that it is the non-fat substances in tar that makes the soap seize.

 

[David1pro]

Rune, I don't think your idea will work. Pine tar used in soap is 100% pine tar - there should be no additives. To try to chemically change the pine tar will result in something else. Besides, Pine tar is not something I can imagine trying to alter in my own kitchen.

 

[melibee]

I use a high percentage of lard in mine and IMHO, that makes it very easy to work with in CP.

 

[DeeAnna]

Yes, there are acids in pine tar, but I would not expect more than trace amounts of light solvents such as the lighter alcohols, acetone, or water. By the very process of making pine tar, all of these low boiling point chemicals should be driven out. Yes, the non-fat substances react quickly with NaOH, because they don't have to be broken down first like fats do. But to remove those non-fat substances means you won't have pine tar any more.

To make pine tar, wood is slowly heated in the absence of oxygen in a process called pyrolysis. The heat evaporates the lighter chemicals and turns some of the remaining chemicals in the wood into a dark, sticky liquid tar that oozes out of the wood. The solids that remain are converted into charcoal. The absence of oxygen during this process prevents the charcoal and tar from burning.

The boiling point of pine tar is 150 to 400 C (302 to 752 F), by the way. (Source: Wikipedia)

Pine tar is not all oil, but also acids and water and acetone and maybe more I can't remember. Alcohol, perhaps. I have read about it, but it is some time ago. I just think, will it help to boil the pine tar first, to boil off the water, acetone and so on? I think, but absolutely don't know, that it is the non-fat substances in tar that makes the soap seize.

 

[Rune]

I think I mixed things a little, I mixed tar and tar water. I couldn't find the paper I read once with detailed analysis of the tar's content. But, I found some information. And that is that the volume will shrink by 25% when the tar is boiled. It will get more viscous/thicker.

Boiling of tar is common in Norway for some uses. To preserve the wooden churches from the Viking age, the tar is boiled to achieve a more long term protection/a thicker barrier to protect the wood against the weather and sun. They experiment with different levels of boiling, different temperatures and time. But, boiling of tar is highly dangerous. It can boil over, catch fire and so on. And the temperature must be measured frequently. So maybe not a good idea to do at home. At least it must be outdoors. I guess a crockpot is well suited for boiling tar relatively safe.

The norm for kiln burned tar is that it should contain:

Specific weight: 1,03-1,07 g/ml
Volatile parts: 8-18%
Water soluble parts: 2-6%

It is not only tar that comes out of a kiln. It is three fractions that separate when the barrels are stored for some time: "Tjærelåg" (tar juice/water) that sinks to the bottom of the barrel. The tar in the middle and water on top. The bottom and top layers are removed.

How much tjærelåg and water the tar contains, will vary during the burning time of the kiln.

This is an example from a norwegian kiln:

Barrel no 1 (first fraction): 125 liter tar - 25 liter water and 30 liter tjærelåg
Barrel no 7 (medium fraction: 150 liter tar - 10 liter water - 15 liter tjærelåg
Barrel no 12 (last fraction): 150 liter tar - 0 liter water - 0 liter tjærelåg

The viscosity of the tar will change too. From thin in the beginning to thick at the end.

The high percentage of volatile parts in pine tar will get reduced or removed by boiling. Water soluble parts, well, I don't know what happens to them. It depends on what it is. I guess something can be water soluble and dispersed in oil, but not soluble in oil, like instant coffee. But kiln burned tar does have a water content, and that will evaporate of course when the tar is boiled.

And by boiling, I mean temperatures between 120 - 190 degrees celsius. That is what they use here, depending on what they are trying to achieve

I now remembered, the amount of volatile parts in pine tar is wrong. It had to do with some inaccurate testing methods. I just read it, and it is in one of the tabs I have closed. But it doesn't matter too much. The real number is up to 22% volatile substances. I can't remember the from number.

I have actually bought 3 liters of pine tar. But lazy me have not collected it yet, even if I bought it several months ago. I think I will try using it both "raw" and boiled in cold processed soap, to see if it makes any difference. But since it does make a difference on wooden church walls, it might do in soaps too.

 

[TeresaGG]

I have actually bought 3 liters of pine tar. But lazy me have not collected it yet, even if I bought it several months ago. I think I will try using it both "raw" and boiled in cold processed soap, to see if it makes any difference. But since it does make a difference on wooden church walls, it might do in soaps too.

Have you made any of those soaps yet?