Phenonip and PS60 in Lotions

[hmlove1218]

Hello everyone! I've been testing a lotion formula and used Optiphen Plus like always, but, for some reason, I got a fishy smell in the finished product. I'm planning to remake it with phenonip to see how it turns out, but I'm concerned about it being deactivated by my emulsifier, which contains PS60. However, I can only find info about PS20 and PS80 deactivating phenonip. I haven't seen anything about PS60. Anyone know if it will react? Thanks!

 

[DeeAnna]

What is your emulsifier? BTMS (aka conditioning emulsifier) smells fishy to some people.

I'd assume PS 60 has the same issues with phenonip that PS 20 and PS 80 do, but I didn't find any specifics about PS 60 either. The numbers indicate the fatty acid base -- PS 20 has a lauric base, PS 60 has a stearic base, and PS 80 has an oleic base.

 

[Soapsense]

This Study lists PS 60
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/1020026/inactivationofpreservativesbynonionics.pdf

 

[hmlove1218]

Thanks guys! Love that document Soapsense! It pretty much answered my question. The emulsifying wax is the traditional wax from WSP.

 

[DeeAnna]

Wow, nice find, Soapsense! Kudos!

Since you used e-wax, Hmlove, then you're probably right the odor is from the preservative. Here's an SMF post that relates to optiphen having an odor: http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=53704

 

[Soapsense]

Glad to help, I haven't made lotion yet, but have been reading, and reading everything before I attempt it.

 

[hmlove1218]

Yes, I remember that thread. I now know exactly what she was smelling lol. It does stink!

Funny thing though, I tried it again yesterday just to verify the result. Exact same recipe, exact same ongredients, exact same method and NO FISH SMELL! It's the craziest thing! Now I have to figure out what the difference was..

 

[DeeAnna]

Lower temperature during heat and hold?

 

[hmlove1218]

I don't think so. Thermometer said 180, but I did let my oil and water phases cool a little more before I added the Optiphen this time.. Maybe that had something to do with it?

 

[DeeAnna]

"...I did let my oil and water phases cool a little more before I added the Optiphen this time..."

I'd sure think that's likely, HML -- good thinking! Do you have any record of what temps you added Optiphen both times? This be something good to know when troubleshooting for other people -- I'm sure this problem is going to crop up for someone else!

 

[hmlove1218]

I do for the fist batch. It was around 140ish I believe - just a minute or two after the heat and hold phase because it cooled off quickly being a small batch.

The second batch I didn't measure unfortunately, but it was the same sized batch and probably sat 5 to 10 minutes after heating. Long enough for the glass and metal containers to be handled with bare hands.

 

[DeeAnna]

So you might have added the Optiphen to the second batch around 100-110 F give or take.

It's odd. The info I'm finding for Optiphen and Optiphen Plus says it's okay to add the preservative at 176 F (80 C) or below, but obviously there's something going on with odor vs. temperature.

 

[hmlove1218]

Yes, that's my thinking too. And perhaps it is ok to add it at high temperatures and it still do its job properly, but one or more of the ingredients are sensitive to higher temperatures, thus giving off a different smell?

 

[Dahila]

Optiphen plus (I used it for over a year) causes separation in lotion when added at high temps. I add it at 45 and lower , Celsius)