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Lee242

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What % of hardness, Cleansing, and Condition should soap be?:roll:
 

snappyllama

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That's the million dollar question and there's really no right answer to it. Soap is pretty individual - what's right for me might not be great for you. It's like asking a baker: what's the right cake recipe? Everybody has an opinion, but it won't necessarily be your opinion.

I'd say the ranges given on SoapCalc are a pretty good place to start, but there is more to a recipe than the breakdown/characterization of fatty acids.

I like my cleansing low so keep CO/PKO to below 20% otherwise my skin rebels. That's unless I'm doing a salt bar where I need high CO to overcome the salt and still bubble. So what type of soap you are trying to make is a big factor in an appropriate recipe. Just like a good wedding cake recipe needs to have different qualities than a torte or a tea cake or a... why am I hungry suddenly?

Maybe a better place to start would be perusing the beginners section (go back and read the last few pages there). Then come up with a recipe, post it here, and ask for feedback before making it.

Here's Deanna's much quoted post on soapCalc qualities... it's pretty great!


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When evaluating a soap recipe, you can look at the individual amounts of each fatty acid (myristic, lauric, stearic, palmitic, oleic, ricinoleic, linoleic, linolenic, etc) to determine the effect of each fatty acid on the soap ... or you can use the SoapCalc "numbers" to do much the same thing, only simpler. Problem is ... and I've said this elsewhere on SMF ... is that the names of the SoapCalc numbers are misleading. It is also important to remember that the fatty acid profile and the SoapCalc numbers do not account for the effect of superfat nor the effect of additives (sugar, milk, honey, sodium lactate, etc.)

So, okay, now let's look at the numbers for at a single fat -- let's choose your cocoa butter and assume we're going to make a soap from this fat. Cocoa butter has a fatty acid profile that looks something like this:

Lauric 0
Myristic 0
Palmitic 25-35% (average is about 30%)
Stearic 28-38% (average is about 33%)
Ricinoleic 0
Oleic 29-41% (average is about 36%)
Linoleic 2-7% (average is about 4%)
Linolenic 0

Lots of numbers, right? Let's look at how SoapCalc groups those numbers into fewer bits of useful information:

Hardness 61
Cleansing 0
Condition 38
Bubbly 0
Creamy 61

So now, okay, how does a person translate from the fatty acid profile to the Soapcalc numbers? Here's how:

Hardness: The hardness value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic + Palmitic + Stearic acids.

These are the saturated fatty acids. The Hardness number is a measure of the physical hardness-like-a-rock. It tells you how relatively easy it will be to unmold a particular soap after saponification. It does NOT necessarily tell you how long-lived the soap will be -- I'll get to that in a bit.

Hardness number from the fatty acid profile (above) = 0% + 0% + 30% + 33% = 63%.
Soapcalc Hardness = 61%.

Is the difference between 63% and 61% important? Nope, not too much. Keep in mind that any fatty acid profile for any particular fat is only an estimate. The SoapCalc folks calculated their Hardness number from slightly different data than we are using. Bottom line -- don't agonize over differences of a few percentage points.

Cleansing: The cleansing value is the sum of Lauric + Myristic acids.

It is a measure of how water soluble the soap is -- meaning it is a measure of how easily the soap dissolves in difficult situations such as hard water, cold water, or salt water. The Cleansing number does NOT tell you whether the soap will actually get your skin clean, which is the usual misinterpretation of the Cleansing number. A soap with a Cleansing value of zero will clean your skin; it is just not as water soluble in hard/cold/salty water as a soap with a high Cleansing value.

Cleansing number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Cleansing = 0%

Conditioning: The conditioning value is the sum of Oleic + Ricinoleic + Linoleic + Linolenic acids.

These are the monounsaturated and polyunsaturated fatty acids. The conditioning value is, to the best of my understanding, a measure of the soap's ability to soften and soothe the skin. The "anti tight-and-dry" property, so to speak.

Conditioning number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 36% + 4% + 0% = 40%
SoapCalc Conditioning = 38%

Bubbly: The Bubbly value is the sum of the Lauric + Myristic + Ricinoleic acids.

This is a measure of how much loose, fluffy lather is produced. A "bubbly" lather is produced quickly by a soap, but doesn't last long.

Remember that the first two fatty acids make a soap that is very soluble in water, so it makes sense that a soap that has a lot of these two fatty acids would make lots of lather, right?

Ricinoleic acid does not make soap that lathers well on its own, but combined with other fatty acids, it enhances the lather the other fatty acids produce. Does a low or zero Bubbly number mean the soap doesn't lather at all? Nope -- just that the soap might not have a lot of fluffy big bubbles.

Bubbly number from the fatty acid profile = 0% + 0% + 0% = 0%
SoapCalc Bubbly = 0%

Creamy: The Creamy value is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic + Ricinoleic acids.

Palmitic and stearic are the fatty acids that produce lather that is fine textured (like whipped cream) and longer lived. Ricinoleic, as mentioned before, enhances lather, whether it be big, bubbly lather or dense, creamy lather.

Creamy number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Creamy number = 61%

Long life: The longevity of a soap is the sum of the Palmitic + Stearic acids.

Palmitic and stearic acids create a soap that is relatively hard and relatively insoluble in water.

Long-lasting number from the fatty acid profile = 30% + 33% = 63%
SoapCalc Long-lasting number = ???

I said I'd get back to this issue. SoapCalc numbers do not directly measure longevity. Many people confuse the Hardness number as being a measure of how long lived the soap is, but that is not strictly correct. If you are working in SoapCalc, the fastest way to estimate the Long-lasting number is this:

SoapCalc Long-lasting number = Hardness number - Cleansing number

For cocoa butter, it's a no-brainer -- the Hardness number is the same as the Long-lasting number. For a Coconut Oil soap, the story is quite different:

Hardness = 79
Cleansing = 67
Long-lasting = 79 - 67 = 12

Compare that to 63 for cocoa butter. Bottom line -- a coconut oil soap will not last nearly as long as a cocoa butter soap, all other things being equal.
 

lsg

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Using SoapCalc, I like at least a 38% hardness number and no more than a 17 cleansing number. Most of the time, the conditioning number goes down as the cleansing number goes up. Keep in mind that the SoapCalc hardness number for Castile soap is not correct. The longer Castile soap ages, the harder it gets.
 

Lee242

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SoapCalc ©Recipe Name: New Print RecipeTotal oil weight65 ozWater as percent of oil weight38.00 %Super Fat/Discount5 %Lye Concentration25.571 %Water : Lye Ratio2.9107:1Sat : Unsat Ratio26 : 74Iodine 84INS 104Fragrance Ratio0.5Fragrance Weight2.03 oz PoundsOuncesGramsWater 1.54424.70700.23Lye - NaOH0.5308.49240.57Oils 4.06365.001,842.72Fragrance 0.1272.0357.58Soap weight before CP cure or HP cook
6.264100.222,841.10#√Oil/Fat%PoundsOuncesGrams1Lard, Pig Tallow Manteca46.151.87530.00850.492Canola Oil20.000.81313.00368.543Olive Oil18.460.75012.00340.194Sunflower Oil15.380.62510.00283.50 Totals100.004.06365.001,842.72Soap Bar QualityRangeYour RecipeHardness29 - 54 25Cleansing12 - 22 0Conditioning44 - 69 71Bubbly14 - 46 0Creamy16 - 48 25Iodine41 - 70 84INS136 - 165 104Lauric 0Myristic 0Palmitic 17Stearic 8Ricinoleic 0Oleic 49Linoleic 20Linolenic 2AdditivesNotes Goats milk

This is what I'm looking at.
Will it fly?

Total oil weight 90 oz
Water as percent of oil weight 38.00 %
Super Fat/Discount 5 %
Lye Concentration 27.293 %
Water : Lye Ratio 2.6640:1

Sat : Unsat Ratio 43 : 57
Iodine 64
INS 147
Fragrance Ratio 0.5
Fragrance Weight 2.81 oz


Pounds Ounces Grams
Water 2.138 34.20 969.55
Lye - NaOH 0.802 12.84 363.95
Oils 5.625 90.00 2,551.46
Fragrance 0.176 2.81 79.75
Soap weight before CP cure or HP cook 8.741 139.85
# √ Oil/Fat % Pounds Ounces Grams
1 Lard, Pig Tallow Manteca 33.33 1.875 30.00 850.49
2 Olive Oil 13.33 0.750 12.00 340.19
3 Canola Oil 14.44 0.813 13.00 368.54
4 Sunflower Oil 11.11 0.625 10.00 283.50
5 Coconut Oil, 76 deg 27.78 1.563 25.00 708.74
Totals 100.00 5.625 90.00 2,551.46

Soap Bar Quality Range Your Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 40
Cleansing 12 - 22 19
Conditioning44 - 69 54
Bubbly 14 - 46 19
Creamy 16 - 48 21
Iodine 41 - 70 64
INS 136 - 165 147

Lauric 13
Myristic 6
Palmitic 15
Stearic 6
Ricinoleic 0
Oleic 37
Linoleic 15
Linolenic 2


Well that's about as good as I can get it to down load.:?
Lard 30oz
Olive Oil 12oz
Canola Oil 13oz
Sunflower Oil 10oz
Coconut oil 25oz
What do ya think?:problem:
And would it fly?:-|
 

kchaystack

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That is a really big batch, 5.5 lbs. I wouldn't make near that much for testing a new formula.

Also that is a lot of coconut. Most people keep it below 20% (except IL, but she is kinda odd that way). I am also not sure why you would use Sunflower, Canola and Olive together.

Most advice is going to be up the lard, lower the coconut, and add 5% castor, and simplify your liquid oils.
 

not_ally

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Lee, I agree w/K on all points. I would just use lard, CO, olive, and castor, and keep the CO at or below 20%, like he said. Some people love tons of olive, but I do not, I would stay low there as well. Of course, that leaves you with a lot of lard but that is just darn fine with me! So, something like: 55% lard, 20% CO, 20% olive, 5% castor. That will make a good hard, light, moisturizing, nicely bubbly bar of soap. The bubbles will be better if you SF lower (say 5%) and let it cure for at least 4-6 weeks, which you should do anyway.

My personal numbers are even heavier on lard, but I personally don't like much CO or olive and might be an out-lier there.
 

Susie

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I am with kchaystack. Up the lard, reduce the CO to 20% or less, add castor oil at 5%. Use either OO or sunflower oil, I think canola is bad about DOS. Try to stick to 4 oil batches, I think you lose a lot of knowledge when you use too many different oils, not to mention that it just becomes really fussy when you have more.
 

doriettefarm

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Strongly agree with all the advice folks are giving you. 5.5 lbs is way too large for a test batch . . . most of my testers are 1.5-2 lbs of oil. Regarding recipe, I would definitely simplify so you know exactly what properties each oil brings to the table . . . too many oils at once and it gets hard to determine. My vote would be 50% lard, 20% sunflower (or olive), 20% coconut & 10% castor. Some people think that much castor makes for a stickier feeling bar but I'm a bubble freak so that's what I use unless doing a swirly batch.
 

Susie

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Lee has a large family, IIRC, that's why he makes such large batches.
 

kchaystack

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Lee has a large family, IIRC, that's why he makes such large batches.
Yes, but the risk that a new recipe is not going to work out is pretty high for new soapers. I would hate to see all this go to waste when he could make a 5 1lb batches with different amounts of oils and see which one each family member prefers.
 

IrishLass

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Also that is a lot of coconut. Most people keep it below 20% (except IL, but she is kinda odd that way)..
Hey- I resemble that remark! :razz:

Yes- it looks like I'm the odd one out again, dagnabit. To me, your recipe looks fine and I would use it in a heartbeat, but that's just little odd me. ;)

In looking at the fatty acid profile, I really don't see anything hugely problematic with it. I don't know if you planned it this way or not, but in looking at your recipe from the fatty acid perspective, going with the combo of olive, canola and sunflower actually looks good to me- the 15% linoleic and 2% linolenic in it will lend a nice gentle edge to things. When I changed your recipe around on Soapcalc to get rid of the canola and sunflower and use only olive, or changed the percentages of those particular 3 oils in other different ways, it was the olive, canola and sunflower combo that gave the best results (at least to me) as per the fatty acid profile.

As has been mentioned countless times, everyone's skin is different, but you'll never know what your skin will like until you actually make a recipe and try it out. Once you do make one and test it out, then it'll be easier to tweak it to your liking from there on out.

I agree with the others about making a much smaller batch to begin with. You don't want to have 5 lbs. of soap sitting around that you find you don't like very much.


IrishLass :)
 

Lee242

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That was the amount for a full batch. I was going to put it down to a little over a pound to try. But I wanted to get opinions on it.
Lard cause I like it, goats milk like it good for skin, Canola protein and moisturizing, Sunflower mild cleansing sustains lather vitamin E Skin condition, Olive oil lotion type lather, coconut oil not to much it is drying but lathers.
doriettefarm I think I'll try that too. Will adjust from there.:smile:
Thanks
Lee
 

not_ally

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Lee, I am curious to see what you think of the OO "lotion type lather" thing. I really, really don't like OO in more than small amounts, I find it slimy, slick, and irritating. But there are plenty of die-hard castille types that are probably fuming as they read this! It is just one of those interesting things that people like or do not, and of course no one is wrong (except for you, Sea Wolfe, if you read this :) JK, b/c Sea is an OO enthusiast and was the first to introduce me to castille IRL).
 
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Seawolfe

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That's a lovely gentle castile, its still there and I use it daily and that just means more for me so NYAH!! :p

Lee, I am curious to see what you think of the OO "lotion type lather" thing. I really, really don't like OO in more than small amounts, I find it slimy, slick, and irritating. But there are plenty of die-hard castille types that are probably fuming as they read this! It is just one of those interesting things that people like or do not, and of course no one is wrong (except for you, Sea Wolfe, if you read this :) JK, b/c Sea is an OO enthusiast and was the first to introduce me to castille IRL).
 

Lee242

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Not crazy about castille, in the rite use it is just fine.
To much OO makes soap slimy Lee does not like slimy.
I don't have much [FONT=&quot]experience[/FONT] with soap ( the last bath I had was 5yrs ago):twisted:
 
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I have just put together a new recipe I would like to use as my main recipe for all soaps , if I post the recipe would you all be willing to provide some feedback or should I start a new thread? I don't want to drop in on someone's post and take over ...
 

IrishLass

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I have just put together a new recipe I would like to use as my main recipe for all soaps , if I post the recipe would you all be willing to provide some feedback or should I start a new thread? I don't want to drop in on someone's post and take over ...
I would start a new thread. :thumbup:


IrishLass :)
 
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