Particle in my liquid soap

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Hana Alifah

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hello, my name is hana. i'm beginner in soap making. recently, i made liquid soap with hot process. i cooked the paste for 15 hours for 250 gram paste in stove. after i diluted the paste with distilled water, it gave clear-brown liquid. but after several days or week, some particles appeared in my liquid soap. it can be in the bottom or floating in my liquid soap, and it can be white or black particle depends on my liquid soap's color (light brown - dark brown). i need your help, is it common thing or i made a mistake or something happen in my liquid soap after several days or week? please help me, i already looking for the answer in google but didn't get anything except i have to wait until the sedimentation falls down and use container that has faucet in the bottom of it when i dilute it.

ingredient = distilled water, coconut oil, olive oil, avocado oil, rice bran oil, illipe butter, KOH.

i really appreciate your help. Thank you very much

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WhatsApp Image 2022-09-07 at 11.14.37 AM.jpeg

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Zany_in_CO

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Your LS looks perfect to me! The sediment shouldn't be a problem. After a 2-week sequester, you can pour off the clear liquid through a strainer (I use clean repurposed pantyhose! LOL)

i cooked the paste for 15 hours for 250 gram paste in stove.
That's a long time! It shouldn't take more than 3-4 hours to cook.
250g base is really small. 500g batch would perform better, I think.

Here's a tutorial with pictures to review that may help you.

My best guess is that the opaque swirlies and brown bits are due to the "unsaponifiables" in olive, avocado, and illipe butter. The brown bits are probably from over-cooking. Not sure. :smallshrug:

It is impossible for us to troubleshoot further without seeing the Printout of your recipe. :)
 
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Hana Alifah

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i see... thank you very much for your insight and help
That's a long time! It shouldn't take more than 3-4 hours to cook.
250g base is really small. 500g batch would perform better, I think
i cooked it for 15 hours, cause less than that, my soap still cloudy and i want my soap clear :) and it's getting longer as more pasta i make, is it common or i did something wrong?

It is impossible for us to troubleshoot further without seeing the Printout of your recipe. :)
coconut oil 90%
olive oil 6%
rice bran oil1.68%
avocado oil 1%
illipe butter 1.32%
water : lye ratio = 3:1

maybe do you have feedback about my recipe? thank you very much
 

Zany_in_CO

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do you have feedback about my recipe?

coconut oil 90%
olive oil 6%
rice bran oil1.68%
avocado oil 1%
illipe butter 1.32%

water : lye ratio = 3:1 :thumbs:
SF = 0% :thumbs:

COMMENTS: I see nothing wrong with your recipe. However, the small % of olive, RBO and avocado add little to the soap. I think you would be happier if you adjusted the coconut down and those 3 oils up. 1-2% illipe butter is good. Any more than that will make your LS less clear due to unsaponifiables. Ditto for olive and avocado. Using 0% SF is ideal for that reason.

So, the problem as I see it, is making too small of a batch and your technique. Up the size to 500g for better results. I suspect your batch wasn't fully saponified before dilution. I see that often with First-Timers. They then either undercook or overcook the batch.

If not fully saponified, the unsaponified bits are free to make the soap cloudy.

To insure success, bring the batch to hard trace. Then cover and let it sit in the pot for 2 weeks to finish. DO NOT COOK! This method is called Cold Process LS. I know many soapers who make LS this way. It takes all the "guess work" out of the process.

At the end of two weeks, it should look similar to this:

LS paste.jpg


Use Phenol drops or perform a clarity test to make sure it's ready before you dilute.

DILUTION

WHAT TO EXPECT FROM VARIOUS OILS IN LS

HTH (Hope This Helps!) :)
 
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Hana Alifah

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coconut oil 90%
olive oil 6%
rice bran oil1.68%
avocado oil 1%
illipe butter 1.32%

water : lye ratio = 3:1 :thumbs:
SF = 0% :thumbs:

COMMENTS: I see nothing wrong with your recipe. However, the small % of olive, RBO and avocado add little to the soap. I think you would be happier if you adjusted the coconut down and those 3 oils up. 1-2% illipe butter is good. Any more than that will make your LS less clear due to unsaponifiables. Ditto for olive and avocado. Using 0% SF is ideal for that reason.

So, the problem as I see it, is making too small of a batch and your technique. Up the size to 500g for better results. I suspect your batch wasn't fully saponified before dilution. I see that often with First-Timers. They then either undercook or overcook the batch.

If not fully saponified, the unsaponified bits are free to make the soap cloudy.

To insure success, bring the batch to hard trace. Then cover and let it sit in the pot for 2 weeks to finish. DO NOT COOK! This method is called Cold Process LS. I know many soapers who make LS this way. It takes all the "guess work" out of the process.

At the end of two weeks, it should look similar to this:

View attachment 68641

Use Phenol drops or perform a clarity test to make sure it's ready before you dilute.

DILUTION

WHAT TO EXPECT FROM VARIOUS OILS IN LS

HTH (Hope This Helps!) :)
wow, thank you very much for your advice... I really appreciate it :)
To insure success, bring the batch to hard trace. Then cover and let it sit in the pot for 2 weeks to finish. DO NOT COOK! This method is called Cold Process LS
can you explain to me what is hard trace? and it means I have to try Cold Process method? or I cook paste first and then let it sit for 2 weeks to finish? I'm sorry I didn't get it clearly :'). Thank you very much for your help
 

Zany_in_CO

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I'm sorry I didn't get it clearly :').
No worries. Honestly? I didn't get it either until the first time I tried it! 😁

I cook paste first and then let it sit for 2 weeks to finish?
Trust me. Cold Procsss LS is like Hard Bar CP. Just bring the batch to trace and you're done. No cooking involved. The soap continues to do its thing all on its own! :thumbs:

Thank you very much for your help
You're very welcome. 🥰
 
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DeeAnna

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@Zany_in_CO -- Don't start shorthanding the word phenolphthalein to "phenol" again. Phenol is highly toxic chemical that is NOT a pH indicator and has no place in soap making. You're talking about phenolphthalein, the pH indicator.

While I disagree that it's truly necessary to use phenolphthalein in soap making, if you insist on giving this advice to new sop makers, at least take the trouble to give accurate information.
 

Zany_in_CO

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@DeeAnna As always, thank you for your input .🙏 🥰

With all due respect, within the LS community, "phenol drops" or, more often, "pheno drops" is the shorthand we use for phenolphthalein. The last time you brought this up, I forgot that was the term you objected to. Forgive my bad memory. I stand corrected.

In my experience, along with LS-ers like Carrie Petersen and Faith (Alaiyna B's Blogspot), using Phenolphthalein Drops (1% in Ethanol) to test whether the paste is ready or not to dilute is quick and easy! But. It is NOT "necessary" but rather a preference. It not only works but I've found it to be the most reliable method.

I can not speak to the science of it, I can only share what my knowledge and experience have taught me over my years of making liquid soap, and teaching others, since 2004. The information is accurate based on what I (and others) found to be true.

CARRIE PETERSEN'S GLYCERIN LS - go to marker 5:10

FAITH'S LIQUID SOAP TUTORIAL - Scroll down to the end of Step #11

Here's how Faith explains it (Source: See link above)

Please note: Phenolphthalein drops are a pH indicator to determine if and/or how basic your solution/soap is, they cannot accurately tell you the pH of your soap/soap paste only whether you have excess lye remaining in your paste which will affect the overall pH thus rendering a darker shade of pink. They are a good tool to use when making your paste along with a clarity test. Clear soap can still have excess lye in it. The most accurate way to do this is via titration. Some people prefer the zap test (touching cooled soap paste to your tongue and if you get a zap like a 9V battery, you still have excess lye present), others do not.
Catherine Failor (also a scientist like you) who wrote the "Bible" on Making Liquid Soap in 2000, (pp. 13-14) says:
Home soapmakers often spend hundreds of dollars on tools such as scales, thermometers, and mixers. Consider a small, inexpensive bottle of phenolphthalein to be an equally important tool.
She then goes on to tell how to make it, and use it, with an explanation of how and why it works. You might take a look if you have that book on your reference shelf. Or, your local library may have a copy you can borrow.

You really should try it. It's a good thing! :videovisit:
 

DeeAnna

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...With all due respect, within the LS community, "phenol drops" or, more often, "pheno drops" is the shorthand we use for phenolphthalein....

Just because other people use the word "phenol" to mean "phenolphthalein" isn't a valid justification to perpetuate this inaccuracy. There are many ideas, rules of thumb, and shorthand phrases floating around in the handcrafted soap community that are silly, incorrect, and absurd. And a few that are even downright dangerous, like this one.

The posts you make here make it clear you see yourself as an educator or advisor to new soap makers. Since you like to fill that role, then you also have a responsibility to pass on accurate, safe, and useful information.
 

Zany_in_CO

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Just because other people use the word "phenol" to mean "phenolphthalein" isn't a valid justification to perpetuate this inaccuracy.
Just to be clear, "Phenol Drops" is what Carrie uses in her video linked above. Since it's "downright dangerous", I suggest you note your concern by adding a comment below that video?

Do you have any objection to "pheno" drops? That's the most common one and the one we used for 10 years on the Liquid Soapmakers Yahoo Group (Now defunct).

Whatever you decide, I hope we can agree that it's important to work together on this for the benefit of the LS community, here and elsewhere. There are many non-members who can easily access this information.
 
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DeeAnna

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"...I suggest you note your concern by adding a comment below that video?..."

When I see dangerous or seriously incorrect information presented here on SMF, I'm going to say something. On the other hand, I'm not going to traipse around Youtube, Facebook, and the rest of the internet kicking people's sacred cows.

It's your idea to talk to Carrie, so why don't you discuss it with her?

I've given up trying to explain why your use of phenolpthalein is wishful chemical thinking. But it's not going to kill anyone, so feel free to create a new generation of liquid soap makers who think the way you do.

Just don't call it "phenol" when you do.
 

IrishLass

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Right here, silly!
Zany_in_CO said:
With all due respect, within the LS community, "phenol drops" or, more often, "pheno drops" is the shorthand we use for phenolphthalein. The last time you brought this up, I forgot that was the term you objected to. Forgive my bad memory. I stand corrected.

I totally understand the desire to shorten phenolphthalein to something less..... bulky. lol Back in the day, I too used "phenol" as a shortcut for it, until I learned there's a totally different chemical by the named of phenol, and then I stopped using phenol as a shortcut, because I hated the thought that someone could go out and buy phenol based on my poorly chosen shorthand with which to test their soap, when they should have bought phenolphthalein instead. 😬 The shortcut "Pheno" is also not a good choice because that means something related to or derived from benzene or something containing phenyl such as phenothiazine. It's unfortunate that folks in the liquid soap community still hold on to these two shortcuts.

Good news, though....I just found out today that there is actually a proper shorthand for phenolphthalein that is used in the scientific community, and it includes any of the following: "HIn", "HPh", "phph" or simply "Ph". I personally like "phph" myself, since phenolphthalein has two ph's in it.


IrishLass :)
 

Zany_in_CO

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I just found out today that there is actually a proper shorthand for phenolphthalein that is used in the scientific community, and it includes any of the following: "HIn", "HPh", "phph" or simply "Ph". I personally like "phph" myself, since phenolphthalein has two ph's in it.
Brilliant! Thank you, @IrishLass!
I personally like "Ph drops" better than "phph drops". Hmmm. 🤔

I hated the thought that someone could go out and buy phenol based on my poorly chosen shorthand with which to test their soap, when they should have bought phenolphthalein instead.
That's exactly why when discussing phenolphthalein, I use a link to a source as I did in Post #11 above. This thread is read by "guests" who are not members, and I wouldn't want to lead them astray any more than the SMF LS-ers who may be interested in the topic. ;)

using Phenolphthalein Drops (1% in Ethanol) to test whether the paste is ready or not to dilute is quick and easy! But. It is NOT "necessary" but rather a preference.
 

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