Palm Oil Free & Extracts

[thinkativeone]

So many...questions... :shifty: Heh. Round two ! *ding ding*

Are there any members on here that make palm oil free soap? If you use palm oil I do not fault anybody using it!! I just choose not to use it myself. I know from reading around it can be a bit of a challenge, but at least I have coconut oil/butters on my side. Right? Right?? To make matters worse I won't be using animal ingredients either. I'm sure you're all ripping your hair out at this point. Sorry.

All jokes and silliness aside after I make my 100% coconut oil soap with a 0 superfat I would like to create a soap that is not 100% olive oil.

Second question: Extracts. I used the most INCREDIBLE smelling soap that had organic pineapple extract and organic coconut extract in it. There were no fragrance oils or EOs. How do I do this?! I want to make my own!! I have tried other soaps from the same place that had extracts in them as well (some had EOs but the pineapple coconut one was my fav); it made them super yummy smelling. Not to mention to use organic EOs in specific cases would just be far too expensive, organic extracts are cheaper. I will not be using fragrance oils. Thank you!

 

[mel z]

Geez, I couldn't even make it through the post! Just kidding!!!

Instead of Palm Oil, coconut oil will work. You don't need to use any particular oil, you can use ANY oil, just different recipes. Be sure to run recipes through soapcalc and pick the oils you find you like and are agreeable with using.

I just googled "how to make pineapple coconut extract". Not a lot came up, should have just googled how to make an extract or something more simple. I did find coconut though.

http://theviewfromthegreatisland.blogspot.com/2013/04/what-to-do-with-whole-coconut-diy.html

 

[shunt2011]

Welcome to the addiction I make soap with and without palm oil. Love them all. I've made 100% Coconut Oil soap but you really need to superfat it between 15 & 20 percent or it will be extremely drying to your skin. I generally use a 20% with all coconut oil. Sorry can't help with the extracts as I've not used them.

 

[Ancel]

But extracts are made with alcohol, and alcohol will seize the soap. You can do a glycerin extract, but that takes a lot of glycerin and how will your soap be with added glycerine. Also you can make an extract in honey, but again how will you add it to your soap? And you'd need a good amount for the scent to carry through the whole cp process. I've heard that coconut is a notoriously difficult scent to extract naturally - as are chocolate and coffee. I'd be really curious as to how they got both coconut and pineapple scents in their soap.

If you can find palm oil from Central America then it's certainly more 'sustainable' than that from Indonesia. I don't know about South America. In Costa Rica the palm oil plantations are generally in old pastureland and actually make a nice habitat. Sure, it's a plantation, and the processing plants are pretty nasty, but perhaps no more so than any other oil processing plant. I've driven through those plantations and the palms are all very well mulched, there are other species growing throughout, lots of birds and insects. Of course what they are doing in Indonesia is awful, and we all make our own choices.

Good luck!

 

[bodhi]

I'd be really curious as to how they got both coconut and pineapple scents in their soap.

Ditto that. Do you have a link to that soap? Im guessing its either not CP or they didnt use organic extracts.

 

[thinkativeone]

Hahaha, I know right? I'm so super difficult. XD


melz: Really sorry if I wasn't clear enough! I wasn't thinking about making my own extracts, but using extracts (organic) that I can buy to scent my homemade soap. And it wasn't pineapple coconut extract, it was pineapple extract and coconut extract added separately to make a Pineapple Coconut scent... Other than saponified oils they did add quite a bit of glycerin I imagine (which was listed), because my soap from them often "sweats", which I don't like. And I saw sorbitol listed, not sure what that does.


shunt2011: I am aware of the 20% superfat rule for pure coconut oil soap to be used on skin - this will be laundry and hand dishwashing bar soap, which is why I will 0% superfat to make it harsher. Thank you, though.


Ancel: See what I wrote above to melz about what I read in the ingredients, maybe it will shed some light on how it's done? I really don't want to offend anyone, but I don't believe personally that palm oil can be sustainable what with the great demand on it only increasing (not from soapers - health food industry too now). I used to feel I could use it because of the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm Oil through suppliers they certified, then I was appalled when I found out their suppliers were doing whatever they pleased - caught red-handed! I'm cutting out all palm now because of that for the Clouded Leopards. Even my organic Melt butter (dairy-free spread - I'm not vegan but I use a lot of substitutes) has palm oil in it. Oh well, coconut oil is my friend!

 

[thinkativeone]

Ditto that. Do you have a link to that soap? Im guessing its either not CP or they didnt use organic extracts.

Sorry, I didn't see your message till AFTER I had posted a reply. Hope it's okay to double-post in this case to answer you. Here's the link complete with ingredient list at link: http://www.bubbleandbee.com/servlet/the-319/Pineapple-Coconut-Soap/Detail

The extracts and oils are certified organic. And the soap LOOKS/feels like CP to me, but you guys are better judges of that. The HP I've seen has been pretty gritty.

 

[Kansas Farm Girl]

Truthfully this makes me think of a melt and pour base, and the pix on their site too looks like a melt and pour soap. a "glycerin" soap. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but that is what the list of ingredients looks like.

 

[Ancel]

Interesting, it all looks like glycerin soap. I don't do MP, can you put alcohol in there? And on the website for the ingredients they don't list alcohol, just extracts: is there another way to do it? I presume the sorbitol would add to the lather, but really have no idea.

And thinkative, I really respect your desire to be organic and responsible in your consuming choices, it's an enormous task to do all the research. I know I'd rather see palm plantations than compacted soil and run off from cattle. I don't think you're offending anyone. I'm married to a farmer, we have an organic cacao and vanilla farm, we're not certified, but have been practicing permaculture for over 25 years. Whatever the Roundtable on Sustainable Palm were doing, they aren't the only ones: there's bad practice everywhere - especially in 3rd world and developing nations. Not necessarily intentional, but sometimes out of a combination of not knowing and having to feed families. The only way you can be really sure is by getting your supplies straight from the grower - and knowing that grower personally so you know you're both actually on the same page. Sorry long post. With best wishes

 

[thinkativeone]

I agree, nothing wrong with M&P but I'm not interested in that. I did it once to get my "soap-making" badge for a religious group kind of like boys and girl scouts when I was a kid. I couldn't understand why the questions on my test said I needed fat and lye to make soap, but people told me I made soap when I put a cube of stuff in a microwave and then poured the liquid into a mold and added glitter. I don't even own a microwave anymore. (Man, I just keep making myself look weirder and weirder to you guys, huh?)

Thank you, Ancel. I appreciate that and I love the fact you've been there and seen these plantations, and that you practice organic permaculture! I think that rocks and I wish you guys were near us! I really would only deeply care about certification if I sold soap someday, I understand many farmers grow organically but cannot afford the certification, and someday I might be one of them! Baby steps, I just want to produce inexpensive organic soap for skincare and cleaning at home over buying it right now. Soapmaking is so awesome!! I get giddy when it comes time to unmold and slice. When we have land someday (apartment right now) the plan is to grow herbs, infuse and make soap with my own herbs. Maybe even make my own essential oils! But I'm getting ahead of myself, phew.

Found this link on the website explaining their use of sorbitol, which is a sugar alcohol: http://www.bubbleandbee.com/ingredients%20explained.html

I really don't think it's M&P because of this on their site, they state they use lye and superfat here, under, "A note about soaps, facial cleansers, and shower gels": http://www.bubbleandbee.com/organic-certification.html

"Our soaps (both liquid and bars) go through the superfatting process, meaning that just a little extra oil is added so that we are sure there is no free alkali in the bar or liquid. An appropriate curing time is also key to a gentle soap. Additionally, we add extra vegetable glycerin to keep the soap super moisturizing."

Does that solve the mystery? Hmmmm.

 

[Ancel]

Yeah, I don't know, I think I'm going to have to write to Stephanie herself!

Thanks for starting this thread, it's interesting to see all sorts of approaches. And really, everyone is weird: never apologize

 

[thinkativeone]

Oh cool, let me know what you find out from her! She is a font of information about organic certification and what different chemicals do, EOs safe for pregnant women, all sorts of things, I read the Chemical of the Day blog.

Thanks for reading it! And responding and helping. It gets really interesting on here!

 

[ocean_soul]

How about New Directions Aromatics powdered fruit extracts? They have one for pineapple but not for coconut.

http://www.newdirectionsaromatics.com/pineapple-powder-fruit-extract-p-1158.html

 

[judymoody]

They may be making transparent soap which involves the use of alcohol.

NDA (New Directions Aromatics) sells some fruit extracts.

However, I have never heard of "coconut" or "raspberry" extract suitable for use in CP soap. Frankly, I have no idea what they're using.

If there were a "natural" way of getting these scents without using FOs, I'm pretty sure the soaping community at large would know about it.

p.s. Oops, posted at the same time.

Regarding palm oil, you can make good soap without it (without using animal fats). Look for oils high in stearic acid to substitute and play around in soapcalc.

 

[Lotus]

When I'm low on oils, I just play around with what I have. Today I did use lard, and canola oil, and grape seed, and soybean. But yesterday, I used olive oil, coconut, grape seed, and shea butter.

 

[thinkativeone]

They may be making transparent soap which involves the use of alcohol.

NDA (New Directions Aromatics) sells some fruit extracts.

If there were a "natural" way of getting these scents without using FOs, I'm pretty sure the soaping community at large would know about it.

The soap does look very see-through so I think you're on to something there. As for people knowing about it, the company owner has access (since I read that chemical blog) to some nifty information since she knows laboratory people. Maybe she knows something the general soaping community doesn't?

Also, the extracts are certified organic. By that info, the only place I've been able to find with certified organic pineapple extract and certified organic coconut extract is a company that appears to have been founded by the actor Ed Begley, Jr. : http://www.naturesflavors.com/ I could totally be wrong about where they got those organic extracts, but that's the only company I found that sold them.

 

[OHello]

I thought that the reason that palm oil became commonly found in soap was because so many people wanted to replace the animal fats like lard and tallow that they used to use before.

I wonder if using the animal products may actually be more sustainable than hacking down the rain forest for palm plantations in the long term. I personally have no problem with using animal fats and am planning to make a tallow soap when my fragrances arrive in a few days. I have heard that it makes really nice soap

 

[melstan775]

you know what, if you want to do an extract by all means try it. Do a one pound test batch and shoot a shot of extract in and see what happens. And don't forget to post your results. Inquiring minds want to know!

PS - my batches from a few months ago when I didn't have palm are now getting to be hard as rocks. Some of them have amazing lather. I'm going to go with you don't need it if you're willing to wait out the cure time.

 

[bodhi]

Looks like MP to me, but then again i dont know that i have ever seen transparent CP. Im curious to see what she says too.

 

[Kansas Farm Girl]

I really don't think it's M&P because of this on their site, they state they use lye and superfat here, under, "A note about soaps, facial cleansers, and shower gels": http://www.bubbleandbee.com/organic-certification.html

M&P does use lye, it is pre-made soap that you re-melt to do what you did in church camp. You were given some pre-made soap that you melted and put in your additives and let it set up. I have made a glycerin soap that I could remelt, but did not need to if I did not want to. I made it as a HP soap. You need an alcohol or other product to make the soap clear and easily re-meltable. Sorbitol is a form of alcohol so that is probably what makes it appear clear in their picture. So if they make their batch then remelt it and add the extracts those extracts would not go through the saponification process and may hold their scents easier. I have only played with this a little bit so really don't know a lot about it.