Opinions on recipe modifications

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Hi all!
I'm looking to simplify and reduce the cost of my basic recipe. So I want to add some Canola in place of some of the Olive and Coconut.

Present recipe:
Olive - 1776 gms
Palm - 341
Coconut - 1354
Shea - 250
Bees Wax - 100
Lard - 908
Castor - 400

Recipe with less Olive and Coconut and the difference made up with Canola:
Olive - 1000
Palm - 341
Coconut - 1000
Canola - 1130

Shea - 250
Bees Wax - 100
Lard - 908
Castor - 400
Does this second recipe look like it would make a good bar of soap?
 
I've not used canola myself, I don't think we get it here.

Why not pop both recipes into a soap calculator, and see how the numbers compare? That will give you an idea if it's likely to be ok, though whether or not a soap is "good" is fairly subjective.

Then I'd use the soap calc to resize the new recipe into a trial batch size (around 500g/1lb oils total) to see if you actually like it - your current recipe is huge! If you don't have a suitable mould, you can always improvise one from a lined plastic or cardboard box you might have at home. My first batches were in a plastic tub (similar to a margarine tub) lined with baking paper.
 
Here's the data of each recipe:

Present recipe:
Olive - 34.6%
Palm - 6.6%
Coconut - 26.4%
Shea - 4.9%
Bees Wax - 1.9%
Lard - 17.7%
Castor - 7.8%
Lauric13
Myristic5
Palmitic15
Stearic6
Ricinoleic7
Oleic39
Linoleic7
Linolenic0


Recipe with less Olive and Coconut and the difference made up with Canola:
Olive - 19.5%
Palm - 6.7%
Coconut - 19.5%
Canola - 22%

Shea - 4.9%
Bees Wax - 2%
Lard - 17.7%
Castor - 7.8%

Lauric9
Myristic4
Palmitic13
Stearic6
Ricinoleic7
Oleic42
Linoleic10
Linolenic2
 
If you read thru forum you’ll find a preponderance of information on lard in CP soap. MANY LOVE for “creaminess” & what it does to soap. Some don’t like. I myself hadn’t used it but bought some to make a loaf with. Even tho my pescatarian teenagers will give me the side eye 😒 & won’t use it, I simply want to feel that 🧼 creaminess it’s supposed to add 🧼✨
 
Unless you have good reasons to stay with olive oil, you might consider to replace it (up to 100%) with HO sunflower/safflower/canola. IME slightly quicker curing times, much lighter colour, and that at half of the price.

Regular (mid-linoleic) canola is a good and cheap component of a base oil blend, but your instinct to not overdo it is appropriate, since it tends to give DOS at higher usage rates.

Besides, I second the others that palm+shea+lard reads a bit weird, since palm+shea is popular in vegan recipes to replace animal fats, and shea is popular to avoid palm, neither of which you're aiming for. Your recipe doesn't rely on either of the hard vegetable oils, you could just leave them out (& increase lard instead).

If the new recipe doesn't harden up as nicely as you're used to (possible due to lower coconut content), you might shave a few % off the olive/canola and add it to the lard.

I personally would avoid very high-melting components (beeswax) for their tendency to complicate CP handling (false trace). But you already explained that you want to use it, and I won't stop you. Particularly with the “rave-worthiness” of your “customers” in mind. They expect your soap to behave like a soap with 2% beeswax behaves. Leaving it out would mean it's a different recipe, not necessarily better or worse, but different. Remember the New Coke effect.


And of course, try out your new recipe on a much smaller scale first (1:10 aka 500 g oils, or even less).
 
Unless you have good reasons to stay with olive oil, you might consider to replace it (up to 100%) with HO sunflower/safflower/canola. IME slightly quicker curing times, much lighter colour, and that at half of the price.

Regular (mid-linoleic) canola is a good and cheap component of a base oil blend, but your instinct to not overdo it is appropriate, since it tends to give DOS at higher usage rates.

Besides, I second the others that palm+shea+lard reads a bit weird, since palm+shea is popular in vegan recipes to replace animal fats, and shea is popular to avoid palm, neither of which you're aiming for. Your recipe doesn't rely on either of the hard vegetable oils, you could just leave them out (& increase lard instead).

If the new recipe doesn't harden up as nicely as you're used to (possible due to lower coconut content), you might shave a few % off the olive/canola and add it to the lard.

I personally would avoid very high-melting components (beeswax) for their tendency to complicate CP handling (false trace). But you already explained that you want to use it, and I won't stop you. Particularly with the “rave-worthiness” of your “customers” in mind. They expect your soap to behave like a soap with 2% beeswax behaves. Leaving it out would mean it's a different recipe, not necessarily better or worse, but different. Remember the New Coke effect.


And of course, try out your new recipe on a much smaller scale first (1:10 aka 500 g oils, or even less).

Let's see if I understand.
I can replace ALL of the olive?? I would like to do that, considering its cost, but it sounds blasphemous!
I shouldn't overdo it with the canola due to DOS?
I can get rid of palm and shea and increase the lard? (Again, sounds blasphemous!)
I can shave off some olive and canola and replace it with lard?
And Bees wax is ok? (I've been using it for years.)

Thanks SO MUCH, my dear Owl, for this exhaustive reply!
 
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes
Yes

With a few caveats/comments:
I've not found even for EVOO to retain much of its uniqueness in soap (except for the weird colour), but it still has some character, whereas refined HO sunflower/safflower are more or less “invisible” (just add mass/volume but no special properties). If your recipe doesn't rely on some peculiarities of the OO, then nothing speaks against full replacement. However, you can dilute your blasphemy by an arbitrary amount via blending OO + HO oilseed oils.

Canola at 50% gave me terrible DOS once (no precautions taken, I was young, ye know). With a responsibly low superfat, and chelator/antioxidant addition, 50% are feasible, but I'd say 30% are well on the safe side (as long as you don't add other sources of poly-unsaturated or rancidity-prone oils). Adding a bit of citrate is a good idea anyway, and if it's only against soap scum.

Palm: yes (as long as you get palmitic acid from other sources, like lard). Shea isn't quite as easy to just leave out, since it also brings unsaponifiables that add the much rumored “butter effect” (soft and “nourished” skin feel) to soap. But I doubt this makes much of a difference with your recipe at 5%, and the beeswax as the unsaponifiables-elephant in the room.

There are countless recipes out there that use lard at well above 30%, some up to 100%. It is a grown-up base oil.

Like said, beeswax isn't everyone's darling, for its tendency to untimely thicken up the batter. But when you (and your target audience) are used to it, then stay with it. Many soapers have “signature ingredients”, and yours is beeswax. Why not?


You're welcome!
 
Just to throw a spanner in the works, how about RBO? It's very cheap here at $4 per litre as opposed to $10 per litre for OO. Having said that, OO is not overly expensive for me to include in my soap. In order from most expensive to least ( for my recipe) is as follows:
Shea
Avocado
Soy Wax ( it's just gone up a HUGE amount since COVID)
Castor
Coconut
Olive
Rice Bran

@Babyshoes - canola is a brand of Rapeseed oil.
 
Just to throw a spanner in the works, how about RBO? It's very cheap here at $4 per litre as opposed to $10 per litre for OO. Having said that, OO is not overly expensive for me to include in my soap. In order from most expensive to least ( for my recipe) is as follows:
Shea
Avocado
Soy Wax ( it's just gone up a HUGE amount since COVID)
Castor
Coconut
Olive
Rice Bran

@Babyshoes - canola is a brand of Rapeseed oil.
I too am a fan of RBO & my favorite recipe thus far, not including ZNSC, uses RBO @ 25%.
 
I wonder if it is blasphemous to ask for the SAP value of Saint Joseph oil…? 🤣


Rice bran oil is an excellent point! I don't know why I constantly forget about it (I'm currently even washing my hands with it on a daily basis).
Depends if it is easily available for you. From the purely technical aspects of soap, it is one of the most valuable liquid oils. It behaves roughly like a 1:1 blend of canola and palm, and brings unsaponifiables.

But then again, you already have got a lot of input to digest! Don't make this too complicated, don't change too many things at a time. You have a solid basis to start & evolve from, but you can start exploring new, different recipes with exciting new ingredients at any time.
 
I wonder if it is blasphemous to ask for the SAP value of Saint Joseph oil…? 🤣

At the Oratory of St. Joseph, I asked the counter lady what kind of oil was St. Joseph's Oil, "Vegetale," she replied. I wanted more specificity. "Quel SORT de vegetale?" I asked. She replied, "Vegetale! Vegetale!" This went on for a while, with her getting more worked up as I asked my question over and over. I finally gave up. I guess it is just plain old vegetable oil.
 
To answer your question about lard v. palm, although they have very similar FA profiles, I can definitely feel the difference. Soaps with even 10% palm feel harsher to my skin; lard soap lather feels very creamy and soft, and my hands don't feel as dry after washing.

I also like to limit the number of oils in my recipes, just to make life simpler for myself. That being said, I can feel the difference that even 5% shea brings to the soap, and I do like it. Quel SORT de difference, you ask? My skin feels softer after washing with a soap that contains shea, compared to the same recipe minus the shea. But that's my skin. YMMV.
 
OK! I know you are dying to hear this information, so here goes. I worked this out with ResolvableOwl.

My BIG NEW Recipe:

Olive - 14.43%
Coconut -18.59%
Bees wax - 1.86%
Castor Oil - 7.44%
Sunflower - 18.59%
Lard - 34.45%
Shea - 4.65% - Actually, Shea was re-added based on AliOop's posting above.

Afterthought - Can I do without the Shea butter. 5 KG is going to cost me $108.69. (Canadian) I will buy it if it really makes a difference, but if it really isn't THAT much of a big deal, I'd rather not spend all that money.
 
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