Olive Oil Seems To Do All The Work...

[Gryphonisle]

I was formulating a recipe on soap calc using Jojoba and Shea Butter (7%ea) in addition to my four base oils (Coco,Palm,Olive and Castor). Conditioning was given at rock bottom at 45 in a range of 44-69. Eventually I reduced the coco and palm oils and raised the olive and got a number in the higher forties. Finally, I lowered the Jojoba and Shea Butter from 7% to 5% and raised the olive oil, again, now to 33%. I got a 52. It would seem olive oil is doing all the work in making a conditioning bar of soap, so why bother with luxe (and pricey) oils like shea butter and jojoba? Are their conditioning values as lotions and balms making it past the lye to serve any real purpose in a bar of soap?

 

[lenarenee]

The conditioning aspect is a little more complex than just numbers on the calculator. Superfat affects it as well. Let me give you this article to read because she explains it so succinctly. Just scroll down a bit to the conditioning part. It will take you 2 minutes. https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/soapcalcs-soap-quality-numbers/

There's also a lovely thing called unsaponifiables that lye doesn't convert to salts. Shea is full of them, but can't be measured on a soap calculator. They add to the conditioning of a soap too. Jojoba is a wax that doesn't saponify; haven't used it in years and that probably means I didn't find it useful.

 

[IrishLass]

Welcome, Gryphonisle!

When seeking out oils/fats that will bring conditioning in your soap, look for those that are especially higher in these fatty acids: oleic acid, linoleic acid and linolenic acid. On SoapCalc, it breaks down each oil/fat into their fatty acid makeup and you can see the individual %'s of each fatty acid in an oil/fat.

Oils/fats that are high in fatty acids such as lauric and myristic, on the other hand, will bring your conditioning down because of how cleansing they are in soap- they are so good at cleaning that adding too much in a formula will strip your skin of its natural oils leaving it feeling dry and parched.

The trick is in finding the right balance for your skin type, which can only be attained through good old fashioned trial and error. How much of this fatty acid or that fatty acid is too much varies from person to person based on their skin-type. Some can tolerate only having a combined total of 15% of lauric and myristic acid in their soap, while others are perfectly fine with 30%.

For what it's worth, my family and I can handle bigger percentages of lauric and myristic (31%), but still, the largest % (of most) of my formulas is made of olive oil or other oils such as HO Sunflower, followed by a lesser but fairly even percentage of lard/tallow and coconut or PKO, and then butters.


IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

The "conditioning" name in Soapcalc can't be taken at literal face value. This number is the combined percentages of the oleic, linoleic, linolenic, and ricinoleic fatty acids. That's all it means.

Any of the other fatty acids that add mildness such as palmitic and stearic acids are not included. That's why shea doesn't raise the "conditioning" number by much even though it's a favorite additive for making a mild soap -- shea is a rich source of stearic acid and is moderately high in oleic acid. Unsaponifiable content is not included, which shea and jojoba contain. Superfat isn't taken into account.

I personally don't think the "conditioning" number is particularly helpful. Focusing on raising this number in the belief that it will make the soap extra mild tends to drive newer soapers to make soap that can be overly soft, may be prone to rancidity (DOS), and fairly water soluble so short lived.

As far as jojoba, I wouldn't use it in soap. First, it's expensive. Second, it can make the soap overly soft since very little of it saponifies.

 

[Dawni]

After several tries over several months, I've settled for soap with ok cleansing and longevity numbers, instead of looking at the conditioning factor.... Because of the things mentioned above.

That being said, I rarely use more than 25-30% olive now, if at all, and I find my soaps aren't lacking in the conditioning department. I use rice bran oil instead most of the time, and/or avocado and sweet almond oils sometimes and so far, none of my soaps are at the drying end. This is after I settled on 11-13 cleansing numbers as my happy place.

If I can manage longevity at 30 I'm even happier.

 

[Gryphonisle]

Thank you, All. The article Lenaree forwarded seems to be an easier-to-read version explaining how soapcalculator gets its numbers than one I'd previously read, but the general consensus not to place too much faith in those numbers for SC's conditioning seem appropriate to my experiences. A bit slow on the uptake, I only later noticed that at least three of the preferred acids all have "oleic" in their names, which suggests properties similar to olive oil. Regardless, as DeeAnna noted, high olive oil soaps also tend to be short lived: I've been making a castile a month and avoiding using any for 90 days minimum, aiming for a one year curing, but as with an 86% olive oil "Bastille" bar recipe from Soap Queen, while they (sampled at 90 days) are phenomenally conditioning (and what piqued my interest) they also went to mush/slime if left in the ceramic shower wall soap dish, they had to be kept away from any water contact when not in use and still didn't last that long. More nose buried in Scientific Soap Making is called for!

 

[cmzaha]

Regardless, as DeeAnna noted, high olive oil soaps also tend to be short lived

I could be wrong since I am not DeeAnna, but I do not think she was implying OO soaps are short lived. She mentions that trying to raise the "conditioning number," could lead to using other oils that have a shorter shelf life. Many times trying to raise the conditioning number with also raise the linoleic, linolenic which seem to lend to DOS. Regular Canola and Sunflower come to mind as higher linoleic and linolenic acid oils. On the other hand, OO is a bit of an anomaly when it comes to soap calc. It cures out hard as a rock and will last for years. I just pulled out a 110% olive oil soap that I know is at least 5 years old. Using Canola and Sunflower HO are better options than the regular. DeeAnna has a wealth of easily understood information here:https://classicbells.com/soap/soapyStuff.asp

 

[Gryphonisle]

You're right, again it serves me right for not going back to verify (and on the same page no less) before hitting send. She is NOT talking about olive oil, she's referring to focusing too much on the conditioning number and producing too-soft and short lived soaps. I can hardly wait to see the difference in my castiles after a year's curing, but that won't be until March 2020 at the earliest.

 

[dixiedragon]

Olive oil is a workhorse of an oil. It has a long shelf life, so your soap is less likely to go rancid. It is conditioning and contributes to lather. It will (over time) make a nice hard bar. It is slow to trace, which gives buys you time for swirling and using fussy fragrances.

IMO, most of what I would call luxury oils are wasted in soap. Like jojoba. I love Jojoba in all sorts of body products, but i don't think it brings much to soap.

I only use shea butter in my lard-free palm free soap. Otherwise, I use lard. The queen of soap making oils IMO.

 

[cmzaha]

Unlike many, I hate OO is soap and use it only when I make my yearly batch of 100% Castile, and that is just me. Dixiedragon is correct in what she says in the above post.

 

[lenarenee]

Olive oil is a workhorse of an oil. It has a long shelf life, so your soap is less likely to go rancid. It is conditioning and contributes to lather. It will (over time) make a nice hard bar. It is slow to trace, which gives buys you time for swirling and using fussy fragrances.

IMO, most of what I would call luxury oils are wasted in soap. Like jojoba. I love Jojoba in all sorts of body products, but i don't think it brings much to soap.

I only use shea butter in my lard-free palm free soap. Otherwise, I use lard. The queen of soap making oils IMO.

I'm also like Cmzaha - I don't like olive oil beyond 10 to 20% because despite a long cure and hard bar - the bar becomes a sponge and drinks up tons of water and gets soggy. It takes days of drying to return to near normal.

I agree with Dixie too - LARD RULES! (with all due respect to those who only want vegan soap). If I don't use lard, I have to use a butter.

 

[Gryphonisle]

Olive oil is a workhorse of an oil. It has a long shelf life, so your soap is less likely to go rancid. It is conditioning and contributes to lather. It will (over time) make a nice hard bar. It is slow to trace, which gives buys you time for swirling and using fussy fragrances.

IMO, most of what I would call luxury oils are wasted in soap. Like jojoba. I love Jojoba in all sorts of body products, but i don't think it brings much to soap.

I only use shea butter in my lard-free palm free soap. Otherwise, I use lard. The queen of soap making oils IMO.

I started out using lard to get around questionably sourced palm but moved away from it to avoid the stupidity surrounding its use (almost, but not quite as hysterical as that surrounding lye. "LYE! Oh My GOD!") Palm + Shea and that's it? What's the percentages, if that's not a secret? Oddly enough I wasn't a big shea fan in anything my partner brought home, so much so he stopped buying anything with shea, but then a friend requested a soap with it and I liked the results (it doesn't have that awful smell it has in commercial products, don't know why---it was the smell I didn't like).

I'm also like Cmzaha - I don't like olive oil beyond 10 to 20% because despite a long cure and hard bar - the bar becomes a sponge and drinks up tons of water and gets soggy. It takes days of drying to return to near normal.

I agree with Dixie too - LARD RULES! (with all due respect to those who only want vegan soap). If I don't use lard, I have to use a butter.

With a vegetarian friend who finally fell in love with someone who turned out to be vegan, I found myself going against my vegan resistance and trying to make edible and interesting vegan food. That effort turned me from vegan neutral (I'm okay until you start preaching) to anti-vegan (bring your own green paste, I'm drawing the line at vegetarian---which at least tastes good and is fun to cook). So I'll leave all the vegan soap customers to everyone else, unless I happen to be making a soap that happens to be vegan.

 

[dixiedragon]

I got this from someone else on this forum. I don't remember their screen name but I don't want to claim their recipe.

Castor 5%
Coconut 20%
Shea butter 50%
Sunflower 25%
2% superfat.

This needs a longer cure than lard soap - 8+ weeks. The lower superfat helps to compensate for all of the unsaponifiables in shea, so it lathers well. You could probably use olive or rice bran instead of sunflower.

 

[Gryphonisle]

I got this from someone else on this forum. I don't remember their screen name but I don't want to claim their recipe.

Castor 5%
Coconut 20%
Shea butter 50%
Sunflower 25%
2% superfat.

This needs a longer cure than lard soap - 8+ weeks. The lower superfat helps to compensate for all of the unsaponifiables in shea, so it lathers well. You could probably use olive or rice bran instead of sunflower.

Ah, Thanks. I’ll have to try that.

 

[David Gregory]

Olive oil is a workhorse of an oil. It has a long shelf life, so your soap is less likely to go rancid. It is conditioning and contributes to lather. It will (over time) make a nice hard bar. It is slow to trace, which gives buys you time for swirling and using fussy fragrances.

IMO, most of what I would call luxury oils are wasted in soap. Like jojoba. I love Jojoba in all sorts of body products, but i don't think it brings much to soap.

I only use shea butter in my lard-free palm free soap. Otherwise, I use lard. The queen of soap making oils IMO.

I read that same thing about jojoba the other day when I was on a soaping info deep dive

 

[David Gregory]

I started out using lard to get around questionably sourced palm but moved away from it to avoid the stupidity surrounding its use (almost, but not quite as hysterical as that surrounding lye. "LYE! Oh My GOD!") Palm + Shea and that's it? What's the percentages, if that's not a secret? Oddly enough I wasn't a big shea fan in anything my partner brought home, so much so he stopped buying anything with shea, but then a friend requested a soap with it and I liked the results (it doesn't have that awful smell it has in commercial products, don't know why---it was the smell I didn't like).


With a vegetarian friend who finally fell in love with someone who turned out to be vegan, I found myself going against my vegan resistance and trying to make edible and interesting vegan food. That effort turned me from vegan neutral (I'm okay until you start preaching) to anti-vegan (bring your own green paste, I'm drawing the line at vegetarian---which at least tastes good and is fun to cook). So I'll leave all the vegan soap customers to everyone else, unless I happen to be making a soap that happens to be vegan.

I have a vision of using the phrase "Non Vegan" for any labels I might make, even though it's just for giving away at this point. And even though I find the scent of lard a little hard to take.

I like Vege-Burgers because they taste good not because I think I'm saving the world.

You know calling lard "manteca" and lye "sodium hydroxide" is a deft way of avoiding those horrified reactions to "lard" and "lye".

Plus claiming "Secret Formula Used By The Ancients" adds a bit of mysticism to pig fat and caustic soda soap.

 

[DeeAnna]

In the US, the commonly accepted name needs to be used for ingredients. You can list ingredients per what goes into the soap pot or what comes out, but choose one or the other -- don't mix the two.

Manteca isn't the most commonly accepted name for lard, although if you want a bilingual ingredients list, manteca would be appropriate to include along with lard.

The word "lye" does not just mean sodium hydroxide, although most people who only make bar soap are under the impression this is the case. Actually, lye is a generic word for any alkali solution that can be used to make soap. The list of suitable alkalis includes potassium hydroxide, sodium or potassium carbonate, ammonium hydroxide, and of course sodium hydroxide. You could even include sodium bicarbonate if you stretch the point a bit.

So if you want to use the correct common name for the lye usually used for making bar soap, you'd put sodium hydroxide in your ingredient list.

 

[David Gregory]

In the US, the commonly accepted name needs to be used for ingredients. You can list ingredients per what goes into the soap pot or what comes out, but choose one or the other -- don't mix the two.

Manteca isn't the most commonly accepted name for lard, although if you want a bilingual ingredients list, manteca would be appropriate to include along with lard.

The word "lye" does not just mean sodium hydroxide, although most people who only make bar soap are under the impression this is the case. Actually, lye is a generic word for any alkali solution that can be used to make soap. The list of suitable alkalis includes potassium hydroxide, sodium or potassium carbonate, ammonium hydroxide, and of course sodium hydroxide. You could even include sodium bicarbonate if you stretch the point a bit.

So if you want to use the correct common name for the lye usually used for making bar soap, you'd put sodium hydroxide in your ingredient list.

Thanks for the clarification. It was a toss off suggestion when telling people what is in your soap, obviously not safe for labeling purposes but ideal for casual polite conversation.