Nothing but problems since buying in bulk :(

[Abeltran]

Hello friends!! I'm at a total loss here & would be incredibly grateful for any help, guidance or insight any fellow, experienced soap makers (CP) could offer me. I've been making soap for many moons, but within the last 3 or 4 years now, have been using pretty much the exact same, dependable recipe for all my batches. After years of "fine tuning" & experimenting, I've stuck with my favorite, "go-to" recipe. It's simple (I'm a believer in the "KISS" rule!) & consists of 60% hard oils. 40% soft (10% of which being castor) a 5% superfat & 33% lye concentration. Despite its liquid discount, higher percentage of castor & its saturated to unsaturated fats ratio, I've never had any difficulty working with this recipe. With the exception of misbehaving FO's, I've always been able to create intricate designs, with as many colors as my heart desires with this recipe... No problems (temps no higher than 90° F).

But here's where a dilemma has begun... I've been financially blessed in my humble soap making career to begin purchasing my batch oils in bulk (Ordered from Soaper's Choice & WSP). Prior to purchasing my base oils in bulk, I always bought them locally (grocery stores, costco, etc), or in smaller quantities from various soap making suppliers online, just whenever there was a sale. As soon as I switched to buying in bulk quantity, I noticed a major change... My easy-going, dependable recipe is suddenly accelerating like a BEAST! I just don't get it!!! I'm using the exact same base oils (AND FO's that I've used for years) in a recipe I've made literally hundreds of times with NO ISSUES! Why is it suddenly so impossible to work with NOW?!

I've tried everything I can think of to remedy this, including omitting additives & alternative liquids, as well as completely reformulating the recipe to contain more water (no discount), a higher percentage of olive oil (not pomace) & less castor. By all intents & purposes, the recipe SHOULD be slower-moving & even MORE "forgiving" now, but the problem has still persisted! Regardless of everything I've done to slow my recipe down, it STILL moves at lightening speed, going from emulsion to thick trace faster than I can get any kind of intricate design made. At this point, I'm beyond stumped! Has this ever happened to anyone before... Where you've noticed your recipe behaving completely different when it comes to base oils purchased locally vs. base oils purchased in bulk? Also, I'm noticing my soaps are developing DOS WAY too soon now too... This is another problem I've never had before, but since switching to buying base oils in bulk, suddenly my soaps are developing DOS as early as 2 weeks into cure.

I really thought that buying my base oils in bulk was going to save me money in the long term, but with no longer being able to create intricate, colorful designs in my soaps (which for online sales, was their #1 selling point), and having to toss bars which developed DOS (at a ridiculous rate!), I feel I've done nothing but watch my money go down the toilet. If anyone could offer any insight or personal experience, I would be SO GRATEFUL!

 

[Saponificarian]

Hi Amber. I think you have answered your question, it’s the bulk oils. With the DOS and fast trace, I am guessing the oils have oxidized and are reacting faster because of the free fatty acids.

While I understand that buying in bulk saves money, if you are having to toss soap and lose sales, in the end bulk buying might be costing you more.

If it were me, I would go back to what was working before. If it’s not broke and all that

All the best and I will let other soapers that sell advise as I don’t sell yet.

 

[szaza]

I agree with @Saponificarian, those oils you bought in bulk probably weren't fresh anymore, which explains both the DOS and acceleration. I'd switch to another supplier. Also, check the expiry date on the bottles and contact your current supplier about the issues you've been having. Maybe you could get a refund or return your oils for fresher ones.

 

[AliOop]

I'm so sorry this is happening to you - it must be maddening!

I've never bought in bulk (unless buying six one-gallon containers of CO at Costco counts), but it sounds to me like one of your bulk oils was adulterated with a faster-moving oil. Apparently olive oil is frequently adulterated. Someone else here posted an article just yesterday, and the article claimed that avocado oil may often be adulterated, as well. That was particularly scary bc the studies suggested that it was being adulterated with soybean oil, which is a life-threatening allergen for some people.

While it is horrible to think that someone could be doing that, you can't afford not to investigate. Both Soaper's Choice and WSP are good vendors. I would call them up and explain what is happening to you. While they may not have any answers, if no one lets them know of the problems, they don't have the chance to fix what could be a huge issue on their end.

Best of luck getting it all figured out!

 

[AliOop]

I agree with @Saponificarian, those oils you bought in bulk probably weren't fresh anymore, which explains both the DOS and acceleration.

I had no idea that rancid oil could also cause acceleration. I assumed it was adulterated, so thank you for that additional info!

 

[shunt2011]

I can't speak to bulk from WSP but I have been buying bulk from Soaper's Choice for years. I've never had an issue with how my recipe acted when I went from small amount to 50 lbs, nor have I ever received oils close to expiration. They have dates on the boxes/bottles. I'm currently using palm that I purchased 9 months ago. I've not experienced any DOS problems either. DOS does happen sometimes but for me I think there’s other factors playing.

You certainly have something going on though so I would check the dates to start on your products.

 

[jcandleattic]

I agree with Shunt, I've bought in bulk from both Soaper's Choice and WSP and have never had a problem. I've use oils at one time that were 4 years old AFTER getting them from the supplier, and still never had a problem (I don't suggest doing that, I took a hiatus and when I got back I wanted to use up what I had sitting there - I kept ALL that soap for myself, but they were perfectly fine batches)

You don't say what oils you purchased. Could you have been using regular olive oil, and then when you bought in bulk bought pumice olive oil? I have heard that pumice will trace much faster than regular olive oil, and now that we are in the summer time in the US, if you are in a hot, humid climate, that could contribute to the DOS issues??

I'm not sure, just throwing some ideas out there.

 

[AliOop]

could you have been using regular olive oil, and then when you bought in bulk bought pomace olive oil? I have heard that pomace will trace much faster than regular olive oil

Good call - that thought had crossed my mind, too!

 

[TheGecko]

Has this ever happened to anyone before... Where you've noticed your recipe behaving completely different when it comes to base oils purchased locally vs. base oils purchased in bulk?

I would first start with comparing what you bought locally with the bulk oils/butters you are buying now. You may not be buying the exact same oil or butter.

Also, I'm noticing my soaps are developing DOS WAY too soon now too... This is another problem I've never had before, but since switching to buying base oils in bulk, suddenly my soaps are developing DOS as early as 2 weeks into cure.

If I'm ready this correctly, it sounds like your recipe already has a problem with DOS...this is not good, you shouldn't be developing DOS at all.

 

[lucycat]

What oils did you purchase? Was palm one of your oils and was it homogenized or regular? If regular, have you melt the pail before using and divided for use? Palm separates and if you don't melt, stir, and divide then the fatty acid profile won't the same for each batch. If you use parts with higher steric fatty acid then acceleration will happen. I always buy homogenized to avoid this issues.

 

[DeeAnna]

If your soap is going rancid really fast, and your recipe is moving faster than normal, both of those facts point toward an oxidized fat that has a high percentage of free fatty acids.

I'd guess not all of your bulk fats are oxidized, but at least one is. You could try saponifying small amount of each fat and see if you can specifically pinpoint which one(s) are reacting unusually fast with the lye. That will isolate the troublemakers.

***

As far as the idea of "DOS shouldn't be happening at all", I want to gently point out this is an unrealistic expectation. All-over rancidity and/or freckles of DOS can happen to any soapmaker at any time.

Soap is an organic material that's subject to natural decomposition. The decomposition of soap starts with the oxidation of the fatty acids and then the development of the stinky chemicals we call rancidity. Nobody's soap is immune, although there are factors that increase the chance of rancidity and other factors that reduce the chance. More...

Here are several tests done by respected, competent soap makers that show how rancidity/DOS can develop in soap within a relatively short time. If rancidity can happen to soap made by these folks, it can happen to the rest of us too.

Lather Lover's soap swap, 2013 update -- Updated: Lather Lovers Additive Tests, One Year Later! • Modern Soapmaking

Soapsmith's DOS experiment -- Soapsmith' s DOS Experiment

Zen Soap single oil tests -- Single Oil Swap Results - www.zensoaps.com

Alchemy and Ashes single oil tests -- SINGLE OIL SOAP EXPERIMENT: PHASE 3 - One Year Later'

Curious Soapmaker single oil tests -- A big test of 100% one oil soaps - after 15 months

 

[Mita78]

Excellent recommendations here. I can only say by working with large manufacturers. Going from small batches to large - full manufacturing scale is always difficult, in general it requires trials to adjust the recipe, whether it is Personal care or food manufacturing. This is not to say check and follow the recommendations above.

 

[user 29214]

I did not experience that when switching to bulk supplies. I only get the beef tallow, Shea butter and castor oil in bulk though. The latter from WSP and the two former from soapers choice. I still purchase olive oil and coconut oil locally since it is cheaper. Not sure where you are, but humidity is higher in the summer which contributes to DOS too

 

[DeeAnna]

...Going from small batches to large - full manufacturing scale is always difficult, in general it requires trials to adjust the recipe...

The OP did not specifically say they were going to a larger batch size. They only said they were now purchasing fats in larger bulk quantities.

That said, I agree that people typically have to adjust their procedures if they do go to a larger batch size. Soapers often have problems when scaling up with emulsion failure due to inadequate mixing and also with overheating due to the larger mold having a smaller ratio of surface area to volume.

But my reading of this thread is this isn't what the OP is doing.