Not sure if I can keep soaping. Long WOT with TLDR

[Darth]

Added more details like region, editing for typos and clarity.

Quick Intro:

I've been making soaps for fun & home use for over a year. I still read all about soaping and can't stop browsing people's creations and videos. I feeling very much like this is my long lost hobby.

The kids have fun making formulas, wearing the science gear (safety equip), chosing molds and overall learning about science. I get to explore a science that I missed out on in school (studied physics & geography).

We mainly make CP & HP and have done some Melt & Pour, but it's not a good option because of price & availability. Unless I can make or import decent amounts of quality M&P cheaply (which I have not been able to do).

My Soaping level is perhaps unorthodox. I've made and tested many many different formula and have much experience with standard CP & HP, but not fancy things like layers. I've gotten to the properties of the materials quite well, though I have virtually no experience with scents or coloring.

My issue is that I can't overcome one big problem: I live in the Middle East, where soaping not popular and hence some important materials cannot be found -without much trouble.

This boils down into 2 smaller, but still big problems:

1. I can't get materials I need.

Industrial Suppliers are unable to sell me less than 1 Metric Ton of each material, which I can't afford, store or use in time before expiry.

Online suppliers are prohibitively expensive. Importing 20KG of M&P is cost prohibitive. Typically I've found that shipping costs from the US are about 3x the price of the product.

Palm Oil: Also, we don't get Palm Oil, only Palm Olein (the worst part of Palm Oil) which is definitely not sustainably farmed. Palm Olein is used for frying so it's always liquid and a 100% Palm Olein bar barely lathers, even when reinforced with glycerine & cured for 1 month.

Here is an example for importing Palm Oil Eg. Importing 16KG (35lbs) of Palm oil from Bramble berry will cost $ 227 or $6.5 per LB, before import taxes and port clearance charges.

A friend from the US can bring a limited quantity of palm & other goodies whenever he visits, but this will never be more than once a year and perhaps not every year. He did bring some goodies a while ago and I used the palmto make a small batch to prove that I wasn't crazy and that I could do it (turned out great actually) whereas the rest made about 5 KG of bars for the kids to sell at kids charity fundraiser. This was the only time I ever used fragrances and colors.

Tallow: I've tried replacing palm with Tallow but cows are not local to this region. The animals are slaughtered centrally when imported and local butchers that get the processed parts are uncooperative The parts are quite lean by this stage anyhow. Tallow works out slightly more expensive than pomace, the supply is quite tight and I'm not very experienced in rendering it. I did make a 1 KG batch that I still have. It looks right but still has the smell (reminds me of unflavored icecream). It makes a WONDERFUL 100% soap and I've used it successfully to replace palm, though the price and availability make it so expensive and time consuming. (ok I admit we had a mountain of fun making it :shh

I have another option which is reasonably priced & more available: Lamb Tallow. From what I've read, it seems this is vastly inferior to Beef Tallow & may not be a suitable 1-1 replacement for Palm Oil.

All hope is not lost. I can get a hold of *some* superfats like coco, mango, shea butters and avocado oil from a local specialty supplier, albeit of unreliable quality (I feel the oils are diluted, especially avocado) and at extortionist prices. He quite literally tells me not to buy too much because of the high cost (He runs into the supply issues I do). I mean, the guy literally sells a product called "Snake Oil".

2. No-one to sell too.

And this affects #1 also. I realize this can't be self sustaining without a great deal of time & effort to educate people or setup distribution. Without looking at this as a business, I can't financially justify "doing it right" and importing commercial quantities.

Having said this, I don't necessarily want to turn this into a business. I'm very happy to keep on doing it as my hobby and who knows, maybe one day I can recover some costs after making a nice big batch for someone's special occasion.



So I'm basically limited to using the oils in the supermarkets and here is the list (pretty much all soft oils) with their comparative prices:

I'm sure they seem a bit lop sided (grape seed being more expensive than others), but the prices largely reflect their popularity with the more popular items being cheaper and more available.

I've made many formulations with supermarket oils with some, limited, success. The soaps are either too harsh (my testers seem to really hate superfatting because of the "hard to wash off" effect), too soft, stink (80% Canola or sunflower with 20% Coconut), barely lather or never solidify. How does Bronner's unscented liquid soap smell so naturally nice!

The best formula I made was a mix of Coconut/sun/canola/oo/castor/ghee/sesame that came out almost translucent, great smell, lovely to use but way too soft. Waaay too soft, even after a 4 months cure, its still softer than taffy. Already tried to source some Stearic but ran into Small Problem #1.

125g of this uncolored, unscented bar costs about 3.5 times the price of a commercial soap (most of which are PO+PKO) bar, even when I was trying to go heavier on the cheaper oils.

TL;DR: Help Please!

If you've gotten this far, thank you for your patience.

Here is a summary of my problems:
1. Can't get Palm Oil for solid soap
2. Can't find a fairly cheap (not 100% olive) formula to make Liquid Soap that doesn't stink

I'd really like to overcome these obsctacles so I can start dabbling in colors and scents. I'm missing out on a big part of soaping till I can get the basics sorted out.

It's time for me to re-evaluate the reality of my situation; Is there a reasonable way I can make this work? Have I missed some easy to find materials or formula ? Or is it just time to move on?

I welcome your suggestions and opinions.

 

[Susie]

You have left out one very important detail, what part of the world do you live in? Don't have to even give the specific country, but at least give some sort of region like Indochina, Carribean, western europe, eastern europe, Africa, Middle East, etc.

The first thing I would suggest you do is evaluate if lard(pig fat) would be completely out of the question. If yes, then I can't help. But, there are many people in many parts of the world on here, so someone can suggest something.

 

[Dahila]

Are you against making soap with lard or tallow? Lard is like palm oil. For bubbles you can add sugar. Castor oil. I am looking at the prices not so bad, but the quantity of that terrifying..
Someone on forum was using grocery bought combination of palm oil and something else. You probably should put "palm oil" in search bar. It is tough to give you any supplier name not knowing the place you live...
I am making the soaps for myself only and my family and love it. I kind of getting obsessed with it. )

 

[Obsidian]

What kind of meat animals are local to your area? You don't have to use beef tallow, most farm animals have fat you can use. Pig, sheep and goat work just as well as beef. I use lard instead of palm and love it.

have you tried a 75% olive oil, 25% coconut soap? It will need a decent cure with that much OO but it will be plenty hard. I'd superfat at 8%. A higher SF shouldn't make a soap harder to rinse.

where are you located? Maybe we can help you find a supplier. A quality handmade soap will cost more then store bought soap unless you raise your own meat animals and just use their fat at 100%

 

[Darth]

You're right Susie, I should have mentioned more.
The post was getting long and I wanted to submit before timing out (timed out anyway). Didn't expect replies so soon :wave: Thank you!

I live in the middle east where rendered animal fats are not commercially available. Animals are imported and slaughtered in a central slaughter house that dispose of unsaleable parts such as offal and excess fat up stream before the parts make it to market. I've approached the central butchers without success.

Regional cuisine uses clarified butter (Ghee) instead though animal Ghee is really expensive and vegetable Ghee is cheaper but not by much.

Are you against making soap with lard or tallow? Lard is like palm oil. For bubbles you can add sugar. Castor oil. I am looking at the prices not so bad, but the quantity of that terrifying..

Actually I made some soaps with Beef Tallow and I especially love the 100% Tallow. Feels like Dove. The issues with Beef Tallow are availability & effort required.
Castor is a problem since it's primarily sold in pharmacies in quantities of 50-70ml, but atleast it's available & you only need a small amount.

Someone on forum was using grocery bought combination of palm oil and something else. You probably should put "palm oil" in search bar. It is tough to give you any supplier name not knowing the place you live...
I am making the soaps for myself only and my family and love it. I kind of getting obsessed with it.

The store bought palm / vegetable oil is all palm olein or a blend of palm olein with other vegetable oils.

I've found a supplier of Red Palm Oil, but they charge $4.5 for 1 lbs. Doesn't this seem excessive? I thought Palm Oil was as cheap as coconut but at this price, it's more expensive than EVO.

I understand the obsession. The main thing holding me back from testing more formula is lack of Containers. I'm out of free molds till next week lol

What kind of meat animals are local to your area? You don't have to use beef tallow, most farm animals have fat you can use. Pig, sheep and goat work just as well as beef. I use lard instead of palm and love it.

I've tried to source goat but the butchers that sell goat will not sell the fat separately since it's primarily cooked with the fat.

While also cooked with fat, Lamb is can be sold without the fat (not everyone wants the fat for cooking). There isn't much literature I've been able to find on Lamb Tallow, but from what I can see in the calcs, it's inferior to Beef tallow because it's low on Stearic with about half of Beef Tallow and may have an offensive odor. I have not tried Lamb Tallow because of this.

Have I unfairly overlooked lamb ?

Have you tried a 75% olive oil, 25% coconut soap? It will need a decent cure with that much OO but it will be plenty hard.

Interesting you mention this. I did make a CP 80:20 OO:Coconut formula that still cannot be unmolded after 4 weeks. Its still firming up and is now harder than mashed potatoes.

I'd superfat at 8%. A higher SF shouldn't make a soap harder to rinse.

I made a 70:30 Coconut:Olive Brine Bar with 8% SF that is hard to rinse and still a bit harsh

 

[seven]

I made a 70:30 Coconut:Olive Brine Bar with 8% SF that is hard to rinse and still a bit harsh

with a 70% coconut, i would suggest increasing your SF to about 12-15%. or you can do a 100% coconut with 20-25% SF.

lamb tallow, hmmm, i know how offensive the smell can be. i seriously can't stand the smell of lamb.

no one to sell to? really? several followers on my instagram are soapers from middle east. and i know some of them do sell, so there is a market for handmade soaps.

 

[eucalypta]

That's a difficult situation! I feel for you. Still think that sheep tallow is a favourable option.It will add hardness and conditioning to your soaps. Perhaps you'll have to bribe the butcher! (How is the situation regarding doing business with women, (emancipation)?
You might let your hubbie try.) Dealing with the islamitic butchers here: if you say you need the tallow for a special
dish, they are more willing to help you, than when you tell them it's for soap. Also Crisco is a good palm sub. When you do another 80/20 OO/CO soap, use less water; you'll be able to un-mould it faster.
Good luck in finding resources!
Have you looked at countries closer to your location?

 

[Dorymae]

You can use sheep tallow and it will not be inferior. If you can get the lamb tallow I would try a combination of tallow, olive oil, coconut oil, and a small amount of castor oil. I think you can make some good soap with what you have available. If you have access to lard (pig fat) that would also work.

 

[SmilingSkinNaturals]

What about using salt brine as a hardening agent?? Also, not sure if you do this, but a water discount will help with hardening if you're not working with oils that provide that property (meaning use around a 2:1 water:lye). I don't soap with palm, so I have experimented with options, but I also don't have to worry about import costs. I think salt would be a cheap solution to use with whatever oils you have available. Is cocoa butter an option for you? Helps with a hard bar and gives a nice feel.

 

[Saponista]

Shea butter and cocoa butter can be used to make a hard bar of soap. You probably won't find them in the supermarket but you might have some luck in a beauty supply store.

 

[green soap]

SoapCalc © Recipe Name: Print Recipe
Total oil weight 900 gm
Water as percent of oil weight 33 %
Super Fat/Discount 5 %
Lye Concentration 30.938 %
Water : Lye Ratio 2.232:1
Sat : Unsat Ratio 52 : 48
Iodine 58
INS 164
Fragrance Ratio 0
Fragrance Weight 0 gm
Pounds Ounces Grams
Water 0.655 10.476 297.000
Lye - NaOH 0.293 4.693 133.051
Oils 1.984 31.747 900.000
Fragrance 0.000 0.000 0.000
Soap weight before CP cure or HP cookMore info 2.932 46.916 1330.051
# √ Oil/Fat % Pounds Ounces Grams
1 Palmolein 25.000 0.496 7.937 225.000
2 Sunflower Oil 25.000 0.496 7.937 225.000
3 Ghee, any bovine 25.000 0.496 7.937 225.000
4 Coconut Oil, 76 deg 25.000 0.496 7.937 225.000
Totals 100 1.984 31.747 900.000
Soap Bar Quality Range Your Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 48
Cleansing 12 - 22 21
Conditioning 44 - 69 43
Bubbly 14 - 46 21
Creamy 16 - 48 27
Iodine 41 - 70 58
INS 136 - 165 164
Lauric 13
Myristic 8
Palmitic 21
Stearic 6
Ricinoleic 0
Oleic 22
Linoleic 21
Linolenic 1

SoapCalc results show you can get acceptable soap qualities using your less expensive oils (palmolein, sunflower, ghee and coconut) with a 31% lye concentration. The one potential problem is that the linoleic is rather high and this can cause early rancidity. You can play with the percentages to adjust the qualities (more sunflower for more conditioning) and use rosemary oleo resin if it is available to you.


Trying the same thing and using your more expensive pomace and changing the percentages a bit for more conditioning:

SoapCalc © Recipe Name: Print Recipe
Total oil weight 900 gm
Water as percent of oil weight 33 %
Super Fat/Discount 5 %
Lye Concentration 30.515 %
Water : Lye Ratio 2.277:1
Sat : Unsat Ratio 49 : 51
Iodine 51
INS 164
Fragrance Ratio 0
Fragrance Weight 0 gm
Pounds Ounces Grams
Water 0.655 10.476 297.000
Lye - NaOH 0.288 4.601 130.429
Oils 1.984 31.747 900.000
Fragrance 0.000 0.000 0.000
Soap weight before CP cure or HP cookMore info 2.927 46.824 1327.429
# √ Oil/Fat % Pounds Ounces Grams
1 Palmolein 20.000 0.397 6.349 180.000
2 Olive Oil pomace 35.000 0.694 11.111 315.000
3 Ghee, any bovine 25.000 0.496 7.937 225.000
4 Coconut Oil, 76 deg 20.000 0.397 6.349 180.000
Totals 100 1.984 31.747 900.000
Soap Bar Quality Range Your Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 45
Cleansing 12 - 22 17
Conditioning 44 - 69 47
Bubbly 14 - 46 17
Creamy 16 - 48 27
Iodine 41 - 70 51
INS 136 - 165 164
Lauric 11
Myristic 7
Palmitic 22
Stearic 6
Ricinoleic 0
Oleic 39
Linoleic 7
Linolenic 1

Now the linoleic is at a better level but the recipe will cost a bit more. Another possibility is to mix in just enough pomace so your linoleic is no higher than 15 and keep some of the sunflower oil for lower cost and good conditioning value. This might give you the best quality and price compromise.

I think a fine soap can be made with the ingredients available to you. If your soaps are too soft too long try reducing the water (or other liquid you might be using).

 

[Lindy]

Is bees wax available there? If so that is a great additive for soap to harden it, just don't go over 2% as it will reduce lather. If smell is important to you then I would recommend you start using some fragrances whether it be essential oils (keep beneath 3% because of therapeutic ranges) or fragrance oils, you'll find you like the smell of the soap better.

 

[Aline]

Wow and I thought I had a problem with high shipping costs to Hawaii! Have you looked into co-operative buying with other soap makers in your region?

 

[Darth]

• Seven, Aline : At this point I don't think there is a viable market. Due to many issues, some of which I have overcome, some of which you are all helping me with, the prices of the bars are very high. A 110-145g unscented castile bar goes for about $10 so the few people that would be interested in trying this out, wouldn't need the volumes needed. Especially when you can get 720g of pretty good scented commercial bars for $4. The situation with Artisan soap would be similar.
• Eucalypta, Dorymae: I'm glad to hear you think lam tallow is still viable. My main concern is the awful, awful smell. I can't imagine the smell of a lamb tallow/canola base :sick: . btw I am the hubby
• Crisco is imported so it is not that easy to find and ends up being the same price as Pomace. I'll see what I can do with this
• Saponista: Shea & coco butters are sold in 50g containers and nobody that I can find sells them at 500g-1kg sizes. The small container size is punishing. What do you think a reasonable price for 1kg of shea/coconut/kokum would be?
• Green Soap: Those are some great tips I've never used and must try.
• Lindy I've never thought to use beeswax. It is available and I will get my hands on some and refine it.

I have several good options to work on thanks to your help.

Thank you so much for the support. I greatly appreciate it