Newbie Seeking Partial Gel Advice....

[DragonflyDreams]

Hi everyone! I’ve been reading this forum for a while, but this is the first post from this newbie (<15 batches) and I could really use some advice. My apologies for all the detail in this post, but I'm hoping it'll help with diagnosing :smile: …I’ve been successfully making 1 lb. batches (meaning the amount of oil) of hemp soap in a silicone mold that has 6 individual bars. The recipe is 31.3% Coconut Oil, 30% Palm oil, 24% Olive oil, 14.7% Hemp Seed oil, I use soapcalc.net with 7% discount and water as 38% of oils; I haven’t started using any other additives, FOs, or EOs. Also, I’ve been mixing the oils between 85-90 degrees, using the Soapmakers Companion recipe for Hempsters Delight as a guide.

Other than my first batch (which I had to rebatch) and soda ash issues I’ve learned to manage, they’ve been coming out nice. So I decided to step it up a notch… doubled the recipe, which fits perfectly in Brambleberry’s 10” silicone loaf mold, and both attempts so far have been problematic.

Batch 1 – When lye & oils combined, temp was 90, I forgot to check the temp right at trace, but after it was molded it was still 90; didn’t seem right. BTW, I’m using a digital thermometer. Covered with plastic wrap, put a shoebox on top, wrapped in a blanket, and due to some unplanned events, didn’t unwrap it until 36-40 hours later. Unmolded and it looked nice (though I’m having some bubbling issues I’m sure is related to blending), then I sliced it…..white streaks/swirls throughout. Didn’t zap and pH tested fine, so I started reading posts here and on other sites and was pretty certain it wasn’t mixed enough and my saturated oils were probably solidifying due to low temps.

Batch 2 – Lye was at 102.5, oils were at 100.6, combined all into the pot and the temp was 98.2….what the heck??? Mixed it to full trace, which only got it up to 99.9. Put the plastic wrap on, the shoe box on top, wrapped in a towel, and stuck it in a cooler. 24 hours later unmolded, but waited until the next day to slice. No streaking, but it looks like pics I’ve seen of partial gel.

I’m guessing my temps are too low?? Where should they be at? I’ve been melting my solids in a large Pyrex, then adding the liquids to cool them down. My smaller batches I mixed right in the Pyrex, but these batches I poured into the soap pot. Could my temps be dropping when combined in the pot because the stainless steel was too cold? Should I be heating the pot? Thoughts on not gelling and just putting in the fridge?

Any thoughts/suggestions on what I might try next would be much appreciated! Again, my apologies for the lengthy post…

Thanks!
Sam

 

[osso]

The pictures are kinda hard to see. Are you melting and mixing your full container of Palm before measuring for each batch?

I like to gel all my batches. I think I may have read this tip on this forum. For the silicone loaf mold, place mold in shoebox, surround with packing peanuts for insulation, pour soap, put on lid. So your soap is insulated pretty well. I also set the whole thing in the oven and just turn the oven light on. No partial gels.

 

[DeeAnna]

I agree the pics are too small to be helpful. With that caveat, I'm really not seeing the "bullseye" look of partial gel. I'm seeing streaking or mottling, yes. But partial gel? No, unless the pics are just too small to show the important details.

If I'm correct that the soaps have some mottling/streaking but are otherwise fine, then welcome to the club! Or even if they did gel, no problem. These issues are cosmetic and nothing to apologize for.

The streaks -- Most likely your soap cooled very slowly as it saponified and the different types of soaps in your recipe created the unique patterns you see as they crystallized out of the liquid soap batter. If you pour at thin trace, that can be a trigger for this. Palm that is not well mixed before use is another.

You can soap a little warmer if you want, but room temperature soaping works fine too. I have seen the temperature drop in my soap batter after I've mixed the fats and lye solution together. It is probably some heat loss due to mixing, and I don't get too worried about it. If you use a stick blender and are mixing air into the batter, that can really cool things down even faster.

I don't see huge problems with your technique or your soaps ... maybe some results you didn't expect ... but nothing you've done seems unusual or wrong. I think it probably boils down to practice, practice, practice and getting an "eye and feel" for soaping.

 

[seven]

i'm with deanna, i dont see a partial gel. i dunno what it is though. that said, dont worry too much about temps. i soap RT all the bloody time, and i dont use thermo anymore.

 

[AnnaMarie]

I heat my oils all together, mix my lye water, and then let both come to about 115 - 120 unless I am working with a fragrance oil that is known for being fussy. I insulate well to get a full gel. I would shoot for higher temperatures. Soap Queen mixes around 120 (or at least that's what I thought I read on a post). I prefer mixing at higher temp and think the end result is better, but maybe others think differently???
Cheers!
Anna Marie

 

[cmzaha]

i'm with deanna, i dont see a partial gel. i dunno what it is though. that said, dont worry too much about temps. i soap RT all the bloody time, and i dont use thermo anymore.

I also do not see the telling bulls eye of partial gel. I also always soap room temp except for a few recipes I soap with chilled oils and lye

 

[DeeAnna]

"... I prefer mixing at higher temp and think the end result is better, but maybe others think differently??? ..."

Well, if you want your soaps to gel, then starting with higher temps will help to ensure a full gel.

But a "better" end result? I don't know if I'd necessarily think that across the board.

Many soap makers have good reasons for soaping cooler, especially when using milk, beer, pine tar, challenging fragrances, etc.

 

[AnnaMarie]

You are absolutely correct that there are many times where soaping at lower temps is more appropriate! My suggestion was for the newer soap maker working through aesthetic issues and wanting (I presume) a more consistent and uniform result.
Cheers!
Anna Marie

 

[soap_rat]

You first changed your mold and batch size and then saw a change in the soap behavior, which does lead easily to blaming the mold/batch size. The point about palm separating is a very good one though, and if you still have more of the oils, as in the same container, perhaps go back to your smaller mold and see how the soap behaves. But if you have to open a new container of palm, it may be better to try the bigger mold one more time, using palm that is melted and stirred each time, and seeing if the problem repeats. And, in case the temp is an issue, freeze your mold beforehand then pop the soap into the freezer for 2 days and see whether it has interesting non-planned designs in it or not. (But for SCIENCE, change just one thing at a time!)

However, here's a thought, if you're not slicing into the soaps made in the individual molds, the same effects could be in them, but no one notices as they use up the bar.

One lb of oils into a steel pot (or in any container) would definitely cool down, 2lbs would too but that's a lot for it to cool. The temp going down is a bit odd, but not a sign of the chemical reaction going amiss. I started soaping using Cavitch, and now soap a lot warmer (110ish), and I hit the pot with heat when it's a small batch or is taking awhile to trace. (I used up all my soaping patience on my first dozen batches, stirring with a spoon for hours!)

 

[DeeAnna]

I see your point, AnnaMarie. Thanks for clarifying!

"...The temp going down is a bit odd, but not a sign of the chemical reaction going amiss...."

I agree with SoapRat's point of view. The saponification process is going to happen, even if there's a slight cooling for a bit at first. Just proceed as normal.

Anne Watson in her Smart Soapmaking book offered a tip that has been helpful to me. She says to look for a temp rise of 1-2 deg F. That signals the official start of saponification and the soap should be at light to medium trace. If the temp rise is (speaking from memory) 3-5 deg F or more, the soap is likely to be at very heavy trace by that point.

I measure that rise from the temp of the batter right after it is just mixed together. If there's a temp drop during that initial brief mixing, this rule of thumb still seems to work fine.

 

[DragonflyDreams]

Let me just say....you're all awesome! I certainly landed at a great forum!!

I honestly wasn't sure if it was partial gel, but seeing the color variation, thought it might be, but DeeAnna's description as mottled, is exactly the word to describe it! You've all given me several things to consider but the comments on the palm and mixing the oils has me wondering if I should be altering my technique. Here's my steps...

1. I've been using Brambleberry's 1 lb pouches. I squeeze out the Palm & coconut (if there's butters in the recipe I add those too) into my pyrex bowl on the scale (taring at the start and between oils).
2. I then melt these in the microwave until there's still some solids, then stir to finish melting. This sits in the microwave until my lye cools.
3. I then add my liquid oils (all measured separately) to the melted ones, stir this
   then add to my soap pot.

Should I be melting these separately and/or combining the oils sooner to avoid extreme temp variations? I have noticed some bubbling when I first mix the oils together that almost looks like when oil & water are mixed, but haven't thought much of it until now. As I'm typing this I thought of something that might be a significant piece to the puzzle??? I keep my hemp oil in the fridge and even though I take it out when I assemble everything, it's still colder than everything else. Problematic??

This is what I'm loving about soaping...mixing creativity, science & detective work, what a combination for a right & left brained gal! Thanks for talking this through with me!

 

[shunt2011]

You should be melting the Palm oil before each batch or melt it and divide it into separate batches. Palm separates and the Stearic will settle to the bottom and can affect your batches. I too am a RT soaper and it generally takes a while for my soaps to get to gel because of the cooler soaping temps.

 

[Dahila]

My first soap looks like the first pictures, I am using it and it behaves like a good no drying soap. I had the white streaks too. Yesterday I mixed Gennie soap at 82 maybe (I am more of metric person) and it was easy to mix but did not gel... Next will be mixed at higher temps..
DD I think the first soap is good, no zap test postive) I am a newbie too

 

[DragonflyDreams]

Dahila, sounds like we're going through similar learning curves and using similar sources....I think they're both safe, just not too attractive but that's all part of the learning. Looking forward to trying again this week....happy soaping!