Newb question on temperatures of vegetal only soaps

[rjalex]

Dear friends,
I think I was mighty lucky with my first batch Soap came out beautiful with a great green chlorophyll created color !

Now as I'm debriefing what I've done I have a few question for you more expert people.

I have mixed my oils by heating the two hard ones I have (Cocoa butter and the much softer virgin coconut oil) just to have them melting and then I've added all the liquid ones. I've read about people doing the opposite. My thinking is that the less I heat oils the less I can degrade them and so why heat the liquid ones ? Do you agree ?

I have spent time and efforts to get lye and oils to the same and correct heating temperatures. I have mixed the liquids when both were at around 93deg F. I've read a lot of you mixing at higher temps (100 or 110). Could this be because higher temps are needed when using animal fats ? I only want vegetable ingredients in my soaps.

Since getting the acid and base at the same temp was by far the more stressful task, could I premelt the lye solution in large advance and then simply slightly heat it to the desired temp right before mixing ?

Last question not totally temp. related. If I mixed my batch into a plastic container such an empty ice cream vat, could I just leave it in there and not pour it into another mold ?

Thanks a lot

 

[dagmar88]

I have mixed my oils by heating the two hard ones I have (Cocoa butter and the much softer virgin coconut oil) just to have them melting and then I've added all the liquid ones. I've read about people doing the opposite. My thinking is that the less I heat oils the less I can degrade them and so why heat the liquid ones ? Do you agree ?

I doubt it has much, if any effect on the quality of your soap.
Soap is a wash off products anyway and pretty much everything is effected by the lye.
If you want to keep some/more of the original properties of the oils, you could use the hot process and add your superfat after the cook.
Though the feeling of CP, HP, gelled and ungelled is slightly different, it comes down to personal preference; not quality.
I'd save more fragile oils or oils you want to retain their properties for leave on applications.

I have spent time and efforts to get lye and oils to the same and correct heating temperatures. I have mixed the liquids when both were at around 93deg F. I've read a lot of you mixing at higher temps (100 or 110). Could this be because higher temps are needed when using animal fats ? I only want vegetable ingredients in my soaps.

Again, it's what you feel comfortable with. How much heat you need depends more on the acidic make up and melting point of the oil/butter than the source.
You just have to make sure everything is liquid and warm enough not to give a false trace.
This is when butters are too cold and re solidify before you've reached an actual trace.
I decided it's just too much of a hassle for me. Both my oils and lye solution are mixed at room temperature, or when needed, I just use them when they're containers are lukewarm to the touch.

Since getting the acid and base at the same temp was by far the more stressful task, could I premelt the lye solution in large advance and then simply slightly heat it to the desired temp right before mixing ?

You can mix larger quantities of lye. Just make sure you store the solution away safely. You don't have to heat it, and I wouldn't. You probably could put it in another container with lukewarm water, but why take the risk.

Last question not totally temp. related. If I mixed my batch into a plastic container such an empty ice cream vat, could I just leave it in there and not pour it into another mold ?

To mix, I'd use something lye safe, as lye does get in contact with the container at least till mixed in with the oil and generates heat.

 

[shunt2011]

I soap at room temp. I mastbatch 5 batches of oils in a large bucket and just take out the amount I need for a batch. I generally mix my lye in the morning before I go to work and when I get home I'm ready to soap. I just leave the lye mixture in a container in the sink with a note on it saying danger. Though nobody is in the house all day anyway to bother it. Try different ways and see what works best for you. When I first started I too found it frustrating trying to get my oils and lye near the same temps.

 

[Obsidian]

I never really worry about temps anymore when I soap, as soon as my lye is under 140* F, I'm ready to mix. I know many people like specific temps but honestly, I've not seen any differences when soaping at different temps. I tried soaping at room temp before and got false trace. People say higher temps make the batter trace faster but I've not experienced that either.

 

[rjalex]

Thanks a lot for your very interesting observations. In winter the real temps in my house are around 20-22 deg C, in summer anything up to 35degC, so probably room temps are just perfect in the warmer months and maybe just a small warm water around the containers to ensure the fats such as CO and CB are liquid. That would be sooooo relaxing

 

[Twiggy]

I try to keep my oils and lye around 30*- 35*C as I use sugar in each soap, but I care less and less about it! The only think I would be careful is milk soaps. The temp around 25C for both oils and lye is ok for me - the rest I soap as soon as the containers are lukewarm - warm when I touch them.

 

[Saswede]

There is a movement amongst soap makers in France, rjalex, who believe that heating might affect the profile of the oils and (perhaps more importantly) the unsaponifiables in virgin oils and butters ....... So I do exactly what you did (melt the butters and solid oils, then remove from the heat and add the liquid oils) to minimize the heat applied to the oils.

As Dagmar says, soap is a wash-off product so this might not matter. But if I spend time sourcing premium virgin oils, I'd like to think that I've given any beneficial properties they may add to the soap the best possible chance of being expressed in the soap. So I prefer to melt my oils and mix the lye early, and then soap later in the day at room temperature (therefore no need for a thermometer, and no stress waiting for everything to be at the same temperature) and I avoid heat from gelling by putting the soap into the fridge as soon as it's in the mold.

I don't think that there's a right or a wrong way, though - each soap-maker has their own approach or philosophy that guides the choices they make, both in terms of technique or additives.


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[Twiggy]

There is a movement amongst soap makers in France, rjalex, who believe that heating might affect the profile of the oils and (perhaps more importantly) the unsaponifiables in virgin oils and butters ....... So I do exactly what you did (melt the butters and solid oils, then remove from the heat and add the liquid oils) to minimize the heat applied to the oils.

As Dagmar says, soap is a wash-off product so this might not matter. But if I spend time sourcing premium virgin oils, I'd like to think that I've given any beneficial properties they may add to the soap the best possible chance of being expressed in the soap. So I prefer to melt my oils and mix the lye early, and then soap later in the day at room temperature (therefore no need for a thermometer, and no stress waiting for everything to be at the same temperature) and I avoid heat from gelling by putting the soap into the fridge as soon as it's in the mold.

I don't think that there's a right or a wrong way, though - each soap-maker has their own approach or philosophy that guides the choices they make, both in terms of technique or additives.

Uuuuu, that’s very interesting. I was thinking about it when I’ve started soaping, but when I didn’t noticed such thoughts in any forums, any books and so on, so I drop that way of thinking… Now I will rethink gelling! Winter is coming, so it may be easier to keep soap ungelled LOL

 

[rjalex]

WOW ! I had read 3 books before I started but I'm learning WAY MORE from posts like these !!! Thanks a lot !

I see a new way of attempting my second batch next saturday !

One thing I am not understanding at all is gelling. On my first batch I mixed at around 90F and after pouring I covered the mold in a blanket like I had read. The soap came out really nice.

If I avoid the blanket or would put the mold (a one liter orange juice tetrapak) in the fridge, what would change ? What's the diff between a gelled and ungelled soap ?

Ciao !

 

[cmzaha]

Gelled soap will not look as opaque as a gelled soap, and I find no difference with the feel of ungelled or gelled. I put most of my soap batches in the freezer awhile to help stop gel. Especially some I know will overheat

 

[rjalex]

Ok, thanks. So if I understand correctly to gel or not to gel is an aesthetic decision more than anything else. Good to know since stealing blankets could contribute to a sudden divorce ;-)

 

[soap_rat]

Also be mindful that if you don't insulate you may get partial gel, which some people don't like the look of (I don't), so it's good to have a plan to make it be all or none. (use a fan, a cold room, or the fridge, or not a loaf mold, to try to avoid any gelling)

If I don't master batch, I melt the butters with some of the hard oil (like coconut), then cool it off by adding the other hard oils and liquid oils. That often gets it down to about 95F, and then my lye is still 140F. I mix it together with those temps and the average temperature is now around 120.

I'd like to see some hard science behind it before I start worrying that heating my oil once for soapmaking is going to damage the oil--also, gelling soap gets hotter than what I heat the oils to. I'm not saying it's not possible, I just like evidence, not just ideas.

 

[pamielynn]

Unless you stop gel by putting in the freezer or fridge (or any number of ways soapers avoid gel) - the batch and all the oils are going to heat up during the gel stage, no matter what temp you start at.

 

[sistrum]

Gelled soaps do last longer.

 

[Eve]

Oil properties do change when you heat them, but not that much, especially not at these kinds of temperatures... If you fry in vegetable oils they become more and more saturated, but that takes time.
Even if the oils are slightly more saturated, it doesn't affect SAP value. That is calculated by the amount of molecules per weight, and that stays the same, even if the molecules are getting lighter - you already weighed beforehand, when they where in their original shape. It may affect soap properties though, as different fatty acids add different qualities... but then again, your oils aren't going to change much by being heated to like 50 degrees celsius for a few minutes, this stuff happens when it's regularly heated to 180 degrees.

I have no idea about unsaponifables (?) though.

 

[sistrum]

My opinion is if you want all the benefits of the properties from an oil you need to use it neat. Even when making lotions you need to heat and hold your product. And when using organic ingredients in soap for me it's more about what they don't have in them than what they do.

 

[rjalex]

I am thankful for all of your knowledge you're kindly trying to transplant under my thick skull

So I get it: either go for full gel or turn to the dark force and freeze it away ! Jedi soapmaking at its best !

The notion of not being to obsessed with the temps (within limits of course) is very interesting. I did not measure the temp after pouring, anyone has an idea of how much would it raise to ? Just out of curiosity.

 

[Twiggy]

And when using organic ingredients in soap for me it's more about what they don't have in them than what they do.

Very well said!

 

[judymoody]

I am thankful for all of your knowledge you're kindly trying to transplant under my thick skull

So I get it: either go for full gel or turn to the dark force and freeze it away ! Jedi soapmaking at its best !

The notion of not being to obsessed with the temps (within limits of course) is very interesting. I did not measure the temp after pouring, anyone has an idea of how much would it raise to ? Just out of curiosity.

If I remember correctly, gel is about 160-180 degrees F.

 

[DeeAnna]

Something was tickling the back of my mind as I read this thread, and I finally remembered it. Some people are finding that DOS in their soap is being triggered by the chlorophyll, sometimes the DOS develops rapidly -- within days or a few weeks -- after the soap is made. One person posted a photo showing a brightly multicolored soap and the green (chlorophyll) parts had quickly developed DOS. Others chimed in with similar experiences. The green was gorgeous, but the possible link between it and DOS certainly gave me pause. ???