New soaper and some ?'s

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Regarding the superfat being pour clogging - an option for that is to do hot process. You can use the same recipes as cold process.

For example, maybe something like:
5% superfat

20% coconut
20% olive
20% rice bran
30% shea
5% castor
5% avocado

Add everything BUT the avocado. Mix with your lye water. Cook in a crockpot or in a stainless steel pot on the stove. Google "hot process soap" for pics and videos. When the soap goes through what we call "Vaseline stage", it is mostly saponified. THEN add your avocado oil. Stir well, then pour/glop into the mold. That way, the avocado oil will be (mostly) untouched by lye.

I know you want to make a "special" soap - but there's a reason we're urging you to at least try some of our "generic" recipes first. We know that these recipes WORK and they make good soap!

Here's a recipe somebody on the forum recommended (sorry, I didn't write down the forum member)! It's on my list to try:

2% superfat
Castor 5%
Coconut 20%
Shea 50%
Sunflower (high oleic) 25%

This recipe has a low superfat b/c shea butter has a lot of unsaponifiables - things that don't become soap - so the low superfat makes it bubbly.

ETA: Do you make pot roast? Have you noticed that while there are a lot of subtle tweaks and variations, the recipes have certain fundamental similarities? Listening to your recipe ideas is kind of like somebody saying, "I want to make pot roast. But SPECIAL pot roast, not generic pot roast. So I'm going to add spinach, caviar, and foie gras, because these things contain nutrients that I want in my pot roast." There is an excellent reason that pot roast doesn't contain spinach, caviar and foie gras. Because that would be extremely expensive yet gross pot roast.
 
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I would just keep buying the handmade soap from a local place I had been getting it (but when I found out she used palm oil, I vowed to make my own). I want something more special than a generic classic soap I guess.

Is this what you were using on your face before? Is it possible you could use the list of ingredients from the soap your face liked to work on a formula for yourself? It is just a thought.

If you used the same soap (from the local artisan) for body & face, then that would make it even easier. You would just have to find a replacement for the palm. Not that hard, as you've had many good suggestions here already. But the ingredient list, if following labeling requirements would have the listing in descending order in decreasing amounts. It won't give you the exact formula, but it gives you a jumping off point. From there, your experimentation would not have to be so very expensive.

I agree that the soap does not have to be rock hard. Personally I don't like extremely hard bars of soap myself, particularly if I drop them on my toes. :think: But it is nice when they don't melt away really quickly, which does happen if I use a little sliver to test out a new soap's lathering ability. Your soap is going to have a good long cure time if you made 3 pounds and it will take you 'forever' to use it all up. You will see the difference in the longer cure versus the uncured state that you are using now, with each subsequent bar of soap you use. You may find it useful to take a few notes on your impressions of the soap at 2 weeks (now), 4 weeks, 6 weeks, 8 weeks, etc. How it feels (milder with more time, usually), how it lathers, how long it lasts once you first get it wet (usually lasts longer as it ages.)

Good luck with your next soap, and I hope it turns out as well as you hope.
 
If you get a good food scale that will measure in grams, you can safely make a 1 lb batch. And keep in mind, Christmas is only 6 months away. So you can gift your bars that didn't quite work out.
 
Actually, I think I am going to make Genny's shampoo bar and try it for everything. I am going on a trip end of August so perfect amount of time to cure it. But am going to sub the half the soybean oil for meadowfoam (I don't have soybean)....and up one of the other oils. Might do this tonight.....
 
skinnybonedog, if you are looking for an animal- and palm- free bar that doesn't take a billion years to cure, I'll echo the poster who suggested a bastille. I've used bars from the following recipe at 6 weeks with good results, and they're gentle enough for the face:

68% olive
20% coconut
7% shea butter
5% castor

I also add 2 tsp of sugar per pound of oils to help with the lather.
 
The reason everyone says you need to experiment is that everyone's skin is unfortunately different so someone's "perfect soap" may not work for everyone.

I can't use coconut oil and choose not to use palm oil or lard do Ginnys soap (modified a bit) is the best one for my skin. My DH uses 100% Castile fragrance free. Everyone is different. CP soap makes a prettier soap than HP.
 
I don't mind a bar that is not rock hard. I don't think I would make soap that needed to cure for a year. I just do not have the space. I do not have any intention of selling soap, this is just for me....so like I said, to make and test repeatedly when I can make some bold moves from the start makes the most sense to me. I spent 4 months researching, reading, buying books, reading forums, so I feel I have the basics down and my first soap turned out great with no reasons to complain or change it if I find it works over time. I made 3 pounds of soap and it will take me a long time to use it all so I have to resist the urge to keep making and making soap which is why I want to try something unconventional with the face soap so I don't keep making soap that is going to go bad or be given away (THAT is expensive)....for those of you that sell soap, it makes sense. But for people like me who just want it personally, I would rather invest the money and try to get it closer to right than wrong the first few times. Oils are already bought at this point so I will just play with the ones I have and see what I get.

1. Starting off with a pound of soap would really make things easier for you, especially for testing batches.

2. You have to have patience not matter what. I've used 2 castiles and they were both nice and worth the wait. going back to the one pound batch, a year isn't a bad length of time to wait for a pound of soap to cure.

3. There's no set amount of soaps that will get you into the intermediate stages of soaping. You just have to soap until you get the basics. your eagerness, as I read it, will work against you because you lack patience to properly cure your soap. Your soap now can be considered trash now but if you waited 3 months, it would not be. Your recipe doesn't look too bad but it's foolish to waste an expensive oil (meadowfoam) in a soap instead of at least a shea butter whip. Really good oils truly shine in creams, whips, and lotions.

4. This is just me but reading about a craft doesn't make you proficient in it. It's not until you actually make the goal product that you will see how things work. After that, you keep practicing and researching to add to your working knowledge so that you eventually become knowledgeable about what you are doing. Ex- I can knit via loom or with needles. I have read how to do all sorts of stitches for each but until I get the basics down and practice the new stitches, I won't really have a feel for how to do them.

5. Please, don't ever judge any homemade soaps as generic in the negative. They may not seem special to you but all soaps at some point was someone else's pride and joy. Even the commercialized soap bars started out as someone's special recipe. Some of the best soaps I've used come from those "generic" recipes you're reluctant to give a chance and the people who made them did only a little tweaking here and there. Soaping is about also about releasing those creative juices but you need a solid foundation to grow up on.

Just wanted to point out that as you have a science background you, of course, realize "chemical laden" is incorrect. Eveything is chemical except perhaps, a void.

I'm going to keep an eye on you. =p
 
You have many oils and breakouts, why do not try to make a face wash, with gentle surfacants ? Read about it on http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.ca/
To wash your face you actually do not need soap, oat's water will be good.. It helps to keep skin clear and helps with healing. Oily skin, really needs to be treated especially gentle :) Try making lotion, there are some oil, which help with acne; like Hazelnut oil, add silk and you can get wonderful lotion for your skin. I use soap for my body. My syndet shampoo bar (no soap) on hair and face , Once a week I use my very gentle Activated charcoal soap based on lard and tallow. You want vegan, everyone think vegan soap is good and, using lard is a waste product you utilize, no one kill an animal to have lard. When we kill an animal, it is our responsiblity, not to waste, and use everything..
I am old woman and I get breakouts too, I have a combination skin, with kind of oily T-zone. Think about checking some blogs, and get more info, it does not seem you like the answers, here. Even so many people here are making soaps for years........
Oh I made this soap (I like her blog) and it looks and feel wonderful after two weeks of curing, but I will cure it another 6-8
http://www.lovinsoap.com/2015/12/how-to-make-baby-soap-buttermilk-bastille-baby-bar/
 
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I think you are getting some really good advice here. I too researched and read through these forums from Sept-Dec (I got all my soaping equipment as a Christmas gift) and "felt" like I knew what to do and expect. I didn't make my first batch of soap until Jan and I done as I was advised and made a 1 lb batch of soap based on what I considered proven recipes here. Let me tell you, that generic soap was the best thing that had ever touched my skin. I still make that soap with only a slight tweak to the percentages because it is that good and does more for my skin than anything I have ever used. I have never gone wrong with the advice I have gotten here. Yes, I know you are ready to experiment and come up with fancy soaps, but you really need to know how soap behaves first. Yes, reading and researching helps, but hands on experience and making simple recipes that don't have problems lets you know what soap is supposed to do and then when you get ready to make fancy soap, you will be able to recognize the potential problems much easier.

I have probably make 10-20 batches of soap so far and yet, I still know that I am a "newbie" and it sure helps that I can come on here and get advice from all these people who are so willing to help. They will troubleshoot with you and tell you "hey, I tried that and it didn't work" and for me, I love it because it saves me money on batches not wasted. :)
 
Wow, SuzanneDee, thank you so much for pointing that out, do not know how I would have gotten through my day had you not taken the time to point that out to me....what is with some of you people here? Maybe make some soap instead of saying things that really have no value and no kindness. I was not knocking anyone's "generic" soap, this was not a personal attack on anyone's soap recipe but some people here have reminded my why I stay off forums as it really seems to bring out the evil in people. For those of you who have been sane and responded with ration and kindness, I thank you....for the others, all I can say is maybe learn to be kind and remember the saying, "if you don't have anything nice to say..."

And I'm out. Since you know everything, why are you even here?
 
I do have to agree that you may not want to use some of those more expensive oils to make soap. And it has nothing to do with them being expensive.

Here is the explanation for why you shouldn't rely on pH strips. All soap is alkaline. When we zap test our soap, we aren't looking for a specific pH, we're looking for excess caustic. The actual pH of the soap can range between 8-11 dependent on the recipe. That means that while at a pH of 11, one soap will be ok where another will not. pH will not tell us our soap is safe (even if it was 100% accurate).

On top of that, due to the micelles that soap forms in water, pH readings are not likely to be accurate. Micelles form aggregates of molecules and sometimes "shield" stuff from being seen. That means you can read a pH that is artificially low.

Standard pH testing for soap is done at a 1% solution to limit the micelle interaction and formation and done with a probe, not test strips or an indicator.

There is a reason so many people use certain oils in soap. It comes down to the fatty acid profile and has nothing to do with comedogenic ratings. Once you make soaps, you are left with alkali salts of fatty acids. These fatty acids will behave differently depending on length, and structure.

Lauric and Myristic acids found in coconut oil form a highly cleansing soap. So much so that it is important to highly SF a bar made with high coconut oil (or another oil high in those FA). You are diminishing some of the cleansing action by leaving oils in the soap. That means it's not likely depositing those oils on your skin, but removing less from your own skin than a 0% SF would. Even if small amounts of coconut oil are left behind, it would be unlikely to be comedogenic.

If you are highly concerned about comedogenic ratings, you could SF as above using hot process. You will be limited in creativity.

About the oils you chose:

Argan, has quite a bit of linoleic acid along with oleic acid. For recipe purposes, you can replace it with an 75/25 split of olive oil and something high in linoleic/linolenic oil like safflower, or canola. *Please see safflower oil for more info

Kokum, Mango, Shea, all are high in stearic acid (kokum having the highest) and very similar in soap. It may be wise to do a split of cocoa butter and shea here as cocoa has some palmatic acids too and will bring more balance to a recipe. The three butters you chose are very similar. I would also keep the butter content at 15-20% or below to make sure lather isn't inhibited too much.

Meadow foam oil: high in very long chain fatty acids, not found commonly in other oils. Long chain fatty acids don't tend to make the best soap. The ones in meadowfoam have been compared to oleic acid and will likely make even more goop and slime than a Castile would. However, you can try it if you wish to. If you want to omit it, olive oil is a great replacement. As is high oleic sunflower/safflower

Safflower (regular): high in linoleic acid. Should be used at less than 15% of a recipe to diminish the chances of DOS. Some people love this fatty acid in soap, others do not.

Castor: only source of ricinoleic acid. Used in many recipes. Reccomended to be used at less than 10% to cut down on stickiness. Thought to increase soap solubility. Will not make a bubbly soap on its own.

This would be my recipe to you:

Olive: 57%

Safflower: 15%

Cocoa butter: 10%

Shea butter: 5%

Meadowfoam: 5% (can be replaced with olive)

Castor oil: 8%

This should make a conditioning, decently balanced bar with some lather. I would add sugar to the soap as well. You may find you don't want to use safflower or meadow foam. Both can be replaced with olive. If you don't want to use olive, use high oleic safflower or sunflower. You may want to try avocado oil to replace some of the olive as it has some myristic acid in it to help with a tiny bit more bubbles.

Your roommate may not even be feeling excess fat/SF, but soap scum and thinking it is left over oil. When I made the switch from commercial surfactants to bar soap it took me a while to get used to that feeling. And I had to start adding sodium citrate to help chelate hard water minerals and reduce that soap scum to really start enjoying soap.

Your science background may help you understand more about the science of soap, but it doesn't make you more knowledgeable about soap. Soap takes a long time to master and understand the many facets of. I have a chemistry background and it's taken me years to learn many things about soaping. Much of that is because there is just so much to learn about it. It's about applying the knowledge and experimenting like any science. I don't consider myself a master even after 4.5 years. I don't think I ever will.

I hope you are not discouraged from continuing to discuss your experiments here. We always look forward to new people coming and giving ideas. I wanted to shed some light as to where people were coming from.
 
Amazing....where did I say I know everything...did not even imply it. What I came here asking for was the EXPERIENCE of those here to help me make a more unique soap that might have qualities above and beyond a basic bar by using oils that have unique qualities. And what I got from some of you is nitpicking about things that have nothing to do with soap and taking things personally that have nothing to do with those of you who think I am knocking a basic bar as if you invented it. As to the word laden "Definition of laden. : loaded heavily with something" so I do not consider a handmade soap laden with chemicals since the lye is no longer lye once the process is complete. Why do some of you feel the need to pick on people...why do people on forums correct people if they spell something wrong, why is there so little kindness in the world in general and I hate to see it show up when I am trying to learn about soap. But my experience in many forums is when people can not see your face and there is no personal responsibility for what you say, people say some really hurtful and nasty things because they can get away with it and while I try to ignore it, these days where every **** day someone is being shot by some idiot, I just have much less tolerance for mean behavior just because someone can hide in their house and type nasty things to a stranger (someone want to comment on my run-on sentence?). My reason for stating I have a science background was simply to say I understand the basics and get the ideas....not that I am a chemical engineer but yet a few of you sling that at me for no reason, like I was saying I am better than you...this is NOT personal about any of you, as I do not know you. So where I am coming from is above and when I was told, "well, since you are new stick to the basics" I hear ya, but that was frustrating because that was why I came here, to get ideas from those who ARE experienced to help with doing something that maybe a newbie should not be doing but is fully capable of doing with some ideas and thoughts from the experts. I know nothing "Jon Snow" when it comes to soap as compared to you all here....that is WHY I came here.
 
And this sounds great....I just may do what you suggested and sub some olive for avocado!

"This would be my recipe to you:

Olive: 57%

Safflower: 15%

Cocoa butter: 10%

Shea butter: 5%

Meadowfoam: 5% (can be replaced with olive)

Castor oil: 8%"



I do have to agree that you may not want to use some of those more expensive oils to make soap. And it has nothing to do with them being expensive.

Here is the explanation for why you shouldn't rely on pH strips. All soap is alkaline. When we zap test our soap, we aren't looking for a specific pH, we're looking for excess caustic. The actual pH of the soap can range between 8-11 dependent on the recipe. That means that while at a pH of 11, one soap will be ok where another will not. pH will not tell us our soap is safe (even if it was 100% accurate).

On top of that, due to the micelles that soap forms in water, pH readings are not likely to be accurate. Micelles form aggregates of molecules and sometimes "shield" stuff from being seen. That means you can read a pH that is artificially low.

Standard pH testing for soap is done at a 1% solution to limit the micelle interaction and formation and done with a probe, not test strips or an indicator.

There is a reason so many people use certain oils in soap. It comes down to the fatty acid profile and has nothing to do with comedogenic ratings. Once you make soaps, you are left with alkali salts of fatty acids. These fatty acids will behave differently depending on length, and structure.

Lauric and Myristic acids found in coconut oil form a highly cleansing soap. So much so that it is important to highly SF a bar made with high coconut oil (or another oil high in those FA). You are diminishing some of the cleansing action by leaving oils in the soap. That means it's not likely depositing those oils on your skin, but removing less from your own skin than a 0% SF would. Even if small amounts of coconut oil are left behind, it would be unlikely to be comedogenic.

If you are highly concerned about comedogenic ratings, you could SF as above using hot process. You will be limited in creativity.

About the oils you chose:

Argan, has quite a bit of linoleic acid along with oleic acid. For recipe purposes, you can replace it with an 75/25 split of olive oil and something high in linoleic/linolenic oil like safflower, or canola. *Please see safflower oil for more info

Kokum, Mango, Shea, all are high in stearic acid (kokum having the highest) and very similar in soap. It may be wise to do a split of cocoa butter and shea here as cocoa has some palmatic acids too and will bring more balance to a recipe. The three butters you chose are very similar. I would also keep the butter content at 15-20% or below to make sure lather isn't inhibited too much.

Meadow foam oil: high in very long chain fatty acids, not found commonly in other oils. Long chain fatty acids don't tend to make the best soap. The ones in meadowfoam have been compared to oleic acid and will likely make even more goop and slime than a Castile would. However, you can try it if you wish to. If you want to omit it, olive oil is a great replacement. As is high oleic sunflower/safflower

Safflower (regular): high in linoleic acid. Should be used at less than 15% of a recipe to diminish the chances of DOS. Some people love this fatty acid in soap, others do not.

Castor: only source of ricinoleic acid. Used in many recipes. Reccomended to be used at less than 10% to cut down on stickiness. Thought to increase soap solubility. Will not make a bubbly soap on its own.

This would be my recipe to you:

Olive: 57%

Safflower: 15%

Cocoa butter: 10%

Shea butter: 5%

Meadowfoam: 5% (can be replaced with olive)

Castor oil: 8%

This should make a conditioning, decently balanced bar with some lather. I would add sugar to the soap as well. You may find you don't want to use safflower or meadow foam. Both can be replaced with olive. If you don't want to use olive, use high oleic safflower or sunflower. You may want to try avocado oil to replace some of the olive as it has some myristic acid in it to help with a tiny bit more bubbles.

Your roommate may not even be feeling excess fat/SF, but soap scum and thinking it is left over oil. When I made the switch from commercial surfactants to bar soap it took me a while to get used to that feeling. And I had to start adding sodium citrate to help chelate hard water minerals and reduce that soap scum to really start enjoying soap.

Your science background may help you understand more about the science of soap, but it doesn't make you more knowledgeable about soap. Soap takes a long time to master and understand the many facets of. I have a chemistry background and it's taken me years to learn many things about soaping. Much of that is because there is just so much to learn about it. It's about applying the knowledge and experimenting like any science. I don't consider myself a master even after 4.5 years. I don't think I ever will.

I hope you are not discouraged from continuing to discuss your experiments here. We always look forward to new people coming and giving ideas. I wanted to shed some light as to where people were coming from.
 
We all get very protective of each other here. A forum is somewhat like a family and if we perceive someone is being "attacked" (whether true or not) it is going to make us go on the defensive. Sometimes that comes off as mean. It is hard to read tone through text.

I know it can get difficult to understand each other especially before we are aware of how we type. You came here asking for help and all of the help you originally received seemed to be thrown back at the sender. When we pointed that out, you got defensive and said more things that seemed to be hurtful or like you knew exactly what you were doing. Even if that wasn't your intention.

I was insulted by your "science" comment because I took it to mean you were some kind of chemist or very scientific person and didn't need advice from small minded people like us. Yes, that's exactly how I took it. It hurt because many of us have degrees or backgrounds in science and it still takes years to master. I can't imagine how it would've felt for someone without that background to read that. So many of our members have grown and learned so much here. (Edit: I now realize that is not what you were saying)

I ultimately chose to ignore my hurt and try to address you as best I could. I don't normally provide responses like I just did but I could tell you wanted explanations as to why we were not recommending your choice of oils. You did receive very good advice in all the previous posts.

Soap takes time and little tweaks can make a big difference. All everyone was trying to say in the beginning was that you may want to take it slow and learn what each oil or fatty acid brings to the party before wasting money on expensive oils. Especially since you even mentioned you didn't want to waste the money. All they were trying to do was look out for your best interests.

We have a very nice sticky in the introductory forum that explains this forums etiquette. It's impossible to know where someone is coming from without them explaining themselves. We all say things that may not be the best but we also don't know which side of crazy you come from because we're all a little (ok let's face it, a lot) crazy.

I hope you aren't offended by this post but I really wanted to explain myself and how I perceived the situation. I could be wrong.
 
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GalaxyMLP,

Thank you and no, I in no way meant to offend by the science comment....it was only to tell you all that I did not just watch a youtube video and decide to make soap...that I had thought this all out very well and understood the concepts due to my background. And I did not mean to offend anyone who does not have a science background. It was ONLY to tell a fact about me, not a knock down of any of you. We all tend to take things so personally when nothing I say here at this point could be personal since I know no one here, but I apologize if that is how it was taken. I researched and read, got books and read some more. I hate to do things poorly. I did not mean to imply I knew more than anyone here because I do not. The reason I was defending was because I didn't feel I needed to keep to basic recipes just because I am new yet that was what I was being told....since you are new please stick to the basics until you "get it"...so that pushed my buttons, but I kept trying and then started getting the nasty posts. I came here FOR the expertise you all have to get thoughts and ideas of doing something other than "basic"....I was not knocking basic, just wanted to do more than basic....and again, that is not personal to anyone here. So I am sorry to anyone that was offended, was never my intention.
 
That might well be part of the problem - you want to stand on our shoulders to leap far in to the path ahead. But as others have said, soaping is not just a case of "do x and y happens and then you end up with z" - it is a lot more fluid than that and no amount of reading or research in any way makes up for making some soap.

Then of course comes the cost issue - you don't want to wast a lot of money, no one does. So jumping in with expensive oils when you don't actually know what you are doing. You think you know, but you really don't know as much as you think you know, because a lot of soaping comes from experience. But the best is personal experience, because your particular set up, humidity, pan size and a trillion other variables all combine to make a direct comparison with the next person very hard and when you also factor in the natural variance even between two bottles of the same brand of the same oil, you get in to a place where YOU really need to know what is what, rather than just being told what it is.

That is why basic was suggested - because it's cheap, easy and gets you used to how it goes. Now, I really don't care what you think of this advice, it is simply my advice. You can take it or leave it.

For the record, even after all of the lye is gone, the soap left over is still a chemical. That was the point SuzanneDee was making - everything is a chemical. The oils, the lye, the soap - even the expensive oils, are all chemicals. We get to choose WHICH chemicals go in to our soap, but it would be The Emperor's New Soap if you tried to make some with no chemicals at all.
 
Well, seems to be many problems....but I will just do my thing and since everyone keeps saying I have to learn by doing, then I will and don't see a reason then to ask for thoughts from the "experts" directly then if the variables are so variable....thanks. I will keep reading and make my soaps as I want whether they be basic or not. The point was missed regarding "chemical laden" it is all relative....if I look at my bottle of "natural" face wash and compare it with my handmade soap.....huge difference and that was ALL I meant....I was not being literal. If we want to get into semantics and literal....again, all this has gone way off base from what I came here for so. Happy soaping to all and to remain happy and kind....I will now bow out as well.

That might well be part of the problem - you want to stand on our shoulders to leap far in to the path ahead. But as others have said, soaping is not just a case of "do x and y happens and then you end up with z" - it is a lot more fluid than that and no amount of reading or research in any way makes up for making some soap.

Then of course comes the cost issue - you don't want to wast a lot of money, no one does. So jumping in with expensive oils when you don't actually know what you are doing. You think you know, but you really don't know as much as you think you know, because a lot of soaping comes from experience. But the best is personal experience, because your particular set up, humidity, pan size and a trillion other variables all combine to make a direct comparison with the next person very hard and when you also factor in the natural variance even between two bottles of the same brand of the same oil, you get in to a place where YOU really need to know what is what, rather than just being told what it is.

That is why basic was suggested - because it's cheap, easy and gets you used to how it goes. Now, I really don't care what you think of this advice, it is simply my advice. You can take it or leave it.

For the record, even after all of the lye is gone, the soap left over is still a chemical. That was the point SuzanneDee was making - everything is a chemical. The oils, the lye, the soap - even the expensive oils, are all chemicals. We get to choose WHICH chemicals go in to our soap, but it would be The Emperor's New Soap if you tried to make some with no chemicals at all.
 
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