Neem Oil

[DeeAnna]

I set myself the task tonight of finding soap recipes with lots o' neem. I found an article by someone who claimed to use 60% neem in soap, but didn't give a recipe nor any pictures. Another person apparently shared a recipe that she said used over 20% neem on the theory that neem stinks no matter how little one uses, so why not use a lot. The recipe had been deleted from the blog post and the Wayback Machine couldn't find it for me, so I have no way of knowing the actual percentage. The soap in her photos was an attractive caramel-honey color.

Most of the recipes I found were at or under 20% neem. Kenna of Modern Soapmaking has a soap recipe with just over 20% neem and an interesting blend of EOs -- cedarwood, tea tree, lavender, and geranium. A quote from Kenna's article that relates to the OP's question --

"...There aren’t any fragrances that cover the smell of neem, and in my opinion, it works best to compliment the scent as much as possible. I like to do this with cedarwood or patchouli, with a dash of lavender, rosemary, or other herbal notes...."

Source: https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/tutorial-neem-soap-with-rosehip-evening-primrose/

 

[Obsidian]

I don't think a 100% neem bar would lather much, but the fatty acid profile is pretty decent -- a nice amount of oleic, stearic, and palmitic. If I set up a recipe with 85% neem and 15% coconut, the fatty acid profile looks even more interesting.

Yeah it is interesting and you are probably right and it won't be that good but I still think I'll try it. At worse I have to shred it and make confetti, at best I discover the newest wonder cure lol

I've been wondering about anise EO! I use it to neutralize the odor of lanolin in an Aquaphor dupe. Thanks for the input.

I hadn't used my neem soap in quite awhile so I gave it a go tonight and the scent has changed quite a lot. The anise isn't as prevalent and the neem is virtually gone at this point. I ca make out the lavender a tiny bit, the rest is just herby.

Its really nice soap, my skin is super soft. This is the complet recipe if you are interested in the full EO blend and the herbs I infused http://www.evernote.com/l/ANjrZ1Gd0h5ImahI-zUb5SPcVsUAIrbh8MU/

I set myself the task tonight of finding soap recipes with lots o' neem. I found an article by someone who claimed to use 60% neem in soap, but didn't give a recipe nor any pictures. Another person apparently shared a recipe that she said used over 20% neem on the theory that neem stinks no matter how little one uses, so why not use a lot. The recipe had been deleted from the blog post and the Wayback Machine couldn't find it for me, so I have no way of knowing the actual percentage. The soap in her photos was an attractive caramel-honey color.

Most of the recipes I found were at or under 20% neem. Kenna of Modern Soapmaking has a soap recipe with just over 20% neem and an interesting blend of EOs -- cedarwood, tea tree, lavender, and geranium. A quote from Kenna's article that relates to the OP's question --

"...There aren’t any fragrances that cover the smell of neem, and in my opinion, it works best to compliment the scent as much as possible. I like to do this with cedarwood or patchouli, with a dash of lavender, rosemary, or other herbal notes...."

Source: https://www.modernsoapmaking.com/tutorial-neem-soap-with-rosehip-evening-primrose/

This is the first neem recipe I made way back when I was pretty new. I added a little ground oatmeal, after 6 or 7 months the scent changed to black tea, it was really weird. My father in law loved it so most went to him, the others I used for dog soap. Wish I would have kept one around.
http://www.evernote.com/l/ANj5i0K37o5O3YB-OAgx_V-KFhb8YH9zlkg/

 

[soapmaker]

soapmaker said: ↑
I'm not using nearly enough, just slightly over 2%.

But now I see from Obsidian that I should not have calculated the lye and water in my percentage so it would be 2.9%. I thought percentage was a percent of the whole.

 

[DeeAnna]

...I thought percentage was a percent of the whole.

Percentages can be based on the whole amount, but they don't have to be, as long as you define what the basis is for calculating the percentage.

With soap, the percentages of different fats or the amounts of various additives are usually based by convention on the one thing in the recipe that is a reliable constant -- the total weight of fat.

Depending on the fats chosen, the NaOH weight can vary due to different saponification values. (All coconut oil => more NaOH, all olive oil => less, and so on.) Depending on the lye concentration, the starting water weight will vary and some of that water is also lost during cure.

So if you want to talk about percentages of ingredients using a consistent basis, it makes sense to use total fat weight, not the total batch weight. Often times a soaper will say something like "15% ppo." The ppo means "per pound of oils". Since percentages are independent of actual units of measure (pounds, grams, ounces), what this is essentially telling you is the percentage is based on the oil weight, not the total weight.

 

[soapmaker]

Thanks DeeAnna, I always wondered about using the water in percentages because some of it cures out. I knew what "15% ppo" meant but I didn't know it was always best to do it that way in soap. And as far as the small additive amounts, I guess I just swept them under the rug. Thanks again!

 

[DeeAnna]

You're welcome!

It's a generally accepted practice to base the amounts of ingredients based on the total weight of fats, but it isn't the only way things can be done. It's just the "ppo" shorthand allows people to communicate clearly without having to do a lot of explaining.

When a percentage is given without the "ppo" notation, most soapers will assume it's "ppo" because that's the usual way measurements like this are given. So if you want to be understood correctly, it's best to follow the convention or be careful to explain if not.

In liquid soap making, the "ppo" convention doesn't always hold. The amount of additional water needed to dilute the soap paste to a pourable consistency is often based on the total paste weight (fat + KOH + water needed to make the paste), not just on the weight of fats. But people have to be careful to explain the basis, since it's not the conventional way of doing things.

 

[Obsidian]

I just made my 100% neem soap. It did trace fast, really fast but it only went to medium trace instead of cement or paste. It still poured easy but I wasn't really able to knock the bubbles out. Hand Stirring would have probably been fine.

The scent isn't any worse then the 15% I made last time. I did add in a little neem leaf powder but the color of the oil is overpowering any color from the leaf. Its a deep golden color ATM, kinda hope it stays.

 

[DeeAnna]

I won't be able to get any soaping done till the weekend, but I'd like to try a test batch something like 15% coconut and 85% neem and see how that behaves -- especially in the lather department. Maybe use my usual 5% KOH too.

From what you report, Obsidian, I get the impression it's "in for a penny, in for a pound" as far as the smell goes.

 

[Obsidian]

From what you report, Obsidian, I get the impression it's "in for a penny, in for a pound" as far as the smell goes.

Pretty much. The only time I noticed a lighter smell was when I used it at 5%

 

[scard]

This is a lot of food for thought. I'm really interested in trying this with some essential oil blends, but sadly I have to save (ugh) up a bit before I can place an order. Until then I'll try it with some complimentary FOs. Thanks all for your generous expertise!

 

[Obsidian]

I cpop my soap and just took it from the mold.
It set up beautifuly and quicker than any other 100% liquid oil soap I've made before. Supposed that's due to the stearic and palmitic acids.

I trimmed up the edges some and took the scraps to the sink and wow, it lathered quite well. More than I ever expected.

The color isn't so orange now, it's nice and the leaf powder made small speckles.

 

[DeeAnna]

Thanks for the feedback on your soap, Obsidian! It looks attractive, and I'm glad it has decent lather now -- and I bet it will lather even better as time goes on. Good stuff to know.

I can't think of another liquid oil that has that much palmitic and stearic. But come to think of it, the Soaper's Choice neem in my pantry is a soft paste like peanut butter. That's a tip off that this isn't the usual garden variety of liquid oil. The temp in the pantry is in the mid 60s F.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

I cpop my soap and just took it from the mold. It set up beautifuly and quicker than any other 100% liquid oil soap I've made before. Supposed that's due to the stearic and palmitic acids. I trimmed up the edges some and took the scraps to the sink and wow, it lathered quite well. More than I ever expected.
The color isn't so orange now, it's nice and the leaf powder made small speckles.

Interesting! Brave soul. Did you add fragrance?

 

[Obsidian]

Nope, I want to see how the natural scent cures out.

Here is the lather. At first it makes a creamy, lotion like lather but work it with a little water and you get this.

Absolutely no oleic slime. I can imagine this would be awesome with some coconut.

 

[DeeAnna]

Just taking a breather from making a test batch of my own. I used 15% coconut and 85% neem, 500 grams total. Lye concentration was 33% with plain distilled water for the liquid. I used a 5% KOH, 95% NaOH mix and 3% superfat.

I decided to not stick blend the soap batter at first, since I had read neem can trace fast. My batch emulsified nicely as I stirred with a spatula, but stayed stuck at an emuslfied-but-not-quite-trace consistency after 5+ minutes of stirring. (edit: The soap batter also developed a grainy texture something like curdled egg custard. I assumed it was mild ricing, but the batter didn't continue to thicken; it just stayed at that curdled-but-not-trace texture.) I gave in and did a couple seconds of stick blending, and the batter still puttered along without showing trace. Not sure if this is typical of neem soap, so YMMV.

Until today, my only experience with the smell of neem was a neem-based garden spray. It has a really pungent nose-twisting odor, and that's what I was expecting the pure neem oil to smell like. Thankfully the oil wasn't remotely as bad as the garden spray stuff. It's odd certainly -- like peanut butter with garlic -- but WAY better than I was expecting. I think my experience with many batches of pine tar soap might be coloring my perceptions too.

Before making the soap, I did a scent trial to see which of 4 FOs smelled good with the neem odor, and Nature's Garden Lime-Cilantro won the contest. Cracklin' Birch was the runner-up, but I thought the clean brightness of Lime Cilantro worked better. We'll see how it smells in the finished soap.

For commercial sale, I don't think it makes sense to use neem at high percentages if lower amounts are acceptable to customers. Soaper's Choice neem is a bit over $5 US per pound ($11 US per kg) and that really ramps up the per-bar cost, compared with typical soaping fats like coconut oil, lard, palm, olive, etc.

Pics to follow in a day or two.

 

[DeeAnna]

Here's the soap I described in the previous post. Unmolded and cut today. It is somewhat softer than my usual high-lard recipes, but not enough to prevent me from cutting, edging, and planing the bars. The loaf mostly gelled, but the bottom bar (lying flat) shows the typical darker "bullseye" ring from a partial gel in that part of the loaf. The dots throughout are air bubbles, but they are less obvious in real life than in the photo.

The lighter swirl was made by adding yellow ochre and titanium dioxide to a portion of batter and doing a drop swirl into the main batter. Not sure if the ochre did much; I was hoping to create a pale gold highlight against the darker uncolored soap. We'll see if my idea works as the soap cures. There are faint rusty speckles developing throughout the darker main areas, so I expect the overall color to morph and darken.

The neem odor in the soap is a deep bready, woody odor with an odd garlic-y twist. It's odd but not nearly as noxious as what I've heard. Based on how odors seem to change during cure, I think I'm going to be okay with the smell after the soap cures. The lime FO is in hiding at the moment, but it should reappear in a few weeks. I really think the sharp, clean bite of a green/citrus scent is a good counterpoint to the heavier neem odor.

eta: The lather gets an "A" grade -- abundant and easy to make. I washed my hands at the sink with a small sample of the soap and cold, but softened water. A flush of large bubbles developed from about 5 rubs of my hands over the soap. Another 5 rubs on the soap created a lotiony layer under the large bubbles -- I think this is the same creamy lotion that Obsidian described. I set the soap down and rubbed just my hands together another 10 times. This aerated the lotion into a creamy lather. My skin feels neutral -- not dry, not oily, not sticky. There is a very, very faint lingering trace of warm lime scent. Lather is not white -- more like a pale tan. I'm not sure if the lather would discolor a white wash cloth, but it might.

 

[WillZ]

Hi DeeAnna, I've been looking all over the net to find a recipe for Neem soap (I hate moskitos), without realizing ntil now that the forum is the best place to look (sorry).
If you go lower on the neem %, what would you substitute it with?
Would adding sodium lactate make it a wee bit harder?
P.s. Yor soap looks beautiful.

 

[DeeAnna]

...If you go lower on the neem %, what would you substitute it with?

For lower % of neem, I would not take the tack you're suggesting. Instead, I'd start with a tried-and-true soap recipe that I like, and then I'd add 20-40% neem to the recipe. Check the fatty acid profile to see if it's within reason. Maybe tweak the percentages of the other fats a bit. Neem has such an interesting and useful fatty acid profile -- its fatty acids look like a blend of lard and olive oil to me -- so it fits nicely into a balanced soap recipe. I wouldn't expect to tweak much, if at all.

For example, here is the fatty acid profile from the basic fat blend I'm using now (lard, high oleic sunflower, coconut, and avocado) that makes an mild, lathery soap:

Lauric 7
Myristic 3
Palmitic 20
Stearic 9
Oleic 48
Ricinoleic 0
Linoleic 5
Linolenic 0

If I make a recipe with 20% neem and 80% of this fat blend, the fatty acid profile changes to this:

Lauric 6
Myristic 3
Palmitic 19
Stearic 10
Oleic 49
Ricinoleic 0
Linoleic 7
Linolenic 0

The numbers don't change by more than a percent or two and they're all within the ranges I want for my soap. I could easily make this recipe without any tweaks. If I go to 40% neem and 60% of the same fat blend, here's the profile:

Lauric 4
Myristic 2
Palmitic 19
Stearic 11
Oleic 49
Ricinoleic 0
Linoleic 8
Linolenic 0

In this case with 40% neem, I might want to increase the coconut oil to raise the lauric and myristic % a small amount, but that would be a totally optional change.

"...Would adding sodium lactate make it a wee bit harder?...."

I'm personally not too crazy about adding salts like sodium lactate to my soap, because salts can reduce the lather. I'd rather keep my lather and get the results I want in other ways. In this case, the soap hardened up beautifully in another day. It was just a little bit softer than usual because it had not fully gelled. A bit softer is not enough reason for me to start changing the recipe. I would instead wait another day before I cut cut the soap. Or I'd insulate the soap a bit more to ensure full gel. Or both.

"...Yor soap looks beautiful...."

Thanks for your compliment, WillZ. As the soap has been curing, the larger uncolored portion of the soap has darkened a little, so the lighter swirls pop out a little better. It did turn out nice!

As far as using neem to repel mosquitoes, bathing with a neem soap won't work well. There will not be enough neem residue left on the skin to work as a repellent for long, if at all. You need a neem product that you can use as needed. In other words, I'd make an oil mixture or a water-and-0il lotion that leaves a film on the skin and can be applied often.

 

[DeeAnna]

I stumbled across an article I'd saved awhile back. It makes an indirect case about neem soap not working well as a mosquito repellent. These results were gleaned by the authors from various studies that look at neem, herbs, and essential oils as insect repellents.

Direct burning (leaves). 76.0% protection from mosquitoes for 2 hours. Field study in Guinea Bissau [116]

Periodic thermal expulsion (leaves). 24.5% protection from An. gambiae s.s. Semi-field study in Kenya [62] (DeeAnna's note -- I have no idea what "thermal expulsion" is.)

1% neem oil volatilized in a kerosene lamp. 94.2% protection from Anopheles spp. 80% protection from Culex spp. Field study in India [126]

2% neem oil applied topically. 56.75% protection from mosquitoes for 4 hours. Field study in Bolivia [45]​

Source: M.F. Maia and S.J. Moore. Plant-based insect repellents: a review of their efficacy, development and testing. Malaria Journal 2011, 10(Suppl 1):S11. http://www.malariajournal.com/content/10/S1/S11.​

If you think about what the results are saying, it's pretty clear the neem needs to be vaporized, burned, or otherwise released into the surrounding air or must be applied often to the skin to be effective for more than a short while. I think washing with neem soap would not be very effective for very long.

 

[DeeAnna]

Here's a photo of the bars after 2 weeks of curing. I planed a light shaving off the faces of the bars, and that odd orange mottling disappeared. (There is still a bit of the orange left on the corners.) I like how the bars turned out.