Need some advice from someone more experienced than me!

[Abeltran]

Hi all!
I'm new to this forum so please forgive me if I don't know what I'm doing quite yet! I've been lurking on this site for quite some time now for general answers to questions, so today I figured I'd sign up and join in the convo!

I've been making cold process soaps for a few months now and have quickly become a soap-making addict! However, I'm having some problems I'm hoping others can help me with...

I live in hot, humid Florida, and it seems that pretty much every batch of CP soap I make lately "sweats". The sweating is more prevalent in recipes where I use chilled tea in place of distilled water. I'm not sure why the soaps made with tea sweat more, but they do. What I mean by "sweating" is that either still in the mold, or just unmolded, the soaps will get beads of amber-colored liquid all over them; some bars more than others, even though they're from the same batch! I figured this was due to the humid climate where I live, and have learned to remedy the problem. When the soaps sweat/bead-up, I take a paper towel and try to absorb up as much as I can. Then I'll place the soaps on a curing rack and put a fan on them to help dry them up more. This has worked well for me, as whatever excess moisture I didn't absorb with the paper towel gets reabsorbed back into the soap quickly, and then I just continue to cure as normal.

But here's where my problem is... My soaps have fully cured now, but the soaps that got the worst sweating in the beginning have cured with a dry, hard, crusty-looking top! The bottoms and sides look fine (and they're cured on a rack where air reaches all sides), it's just the tops that have formed a dry, hard crust, where the soap isn't as vibrant in its natural color as the sides and bottoms are.

I'm wondering why this has happened and how I can fix them? Since this problem is happening more so with the soaps made with tea, is it possible I'm using too much liquid in the recipe, or that the tea is not saponifying fully?? I use 10.50 oz of liquid with all my recipes, which have 32oz of base oils. I don't want to cut the tops off, as these are round soaps poured in a round-cavity mold, and have pretty textured tops I worked hard to make! I'm wondering if I should try giving the soaps a bath to see if that helps, or possibly steaming the tops of the soaps??? I just don't know though, and am stumped as to why only the soaps that had "sweating" issues cured with this problem. If anyone could offer any insight or advice, it would be so appreciated! Also, if anyone knows how I can avoid or prevent the sweating from happening in the first place, I would be so grateful! Thank you for reading and offering your wisdom!

 

[Millie]

Are you using distilled water to make your tea?

I don't think it's good to blow a fan directly on the soaps as they could develope a 'rind' of dry outer soap, and the interior won't lose moisture as effectively.

Hey, welcome to the forum!

 

[earlene]

Welcome to the forum, Abeltran.

It sounds like the dry crusty top is probably soda ash, not at all uncommon.

If the tops are smooth-ish, you can plane the soda ash off. If they are intricate designs you don't want to plane off or slice off, then you can wash the soda ash off with a fine misting of distilled water, followed by a fine misting of 91% (or the highest percentage you can find to purchase locally) isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol.) This will bring back the vibrant colors and should also prevent further soda ash from forming if they are done curing.

Have you used any of them and found that the crustiness disappears with use? If so, then soda ash is the culprit.

As for sweating soaps, I have that same issue with some recipes more than others. In my experience it seems that it happens more often with soaps that have a high water content. Soaping with a higher lye concentration (lower amount of water) helps to prevent this.

However, some soap ingredients are more humectant than others, so the recipe can really make a difference as well. Honey, Aloe or added Glycerine will make for a more sweaty bar of soap. Glycerin is a byproduct of saponification, so adding extra humectants will just increase the issue.

Incidentally, tea doesn't saponify. Neither does water. Fats saponify. But the amount of liquid does surely play a part in how long the soap tends to 'dry'.

 

[lsg]

It can be caused by the natural glycerin produced in soap making. Glycerin is a humectant and can attract moisture. In a humid climate that can be a problem. Why not buy a small room humidifier and place in the room where your soap is curing? I have a small humidifier in every room of our basement. You would be surprised how often I have to empty the collection tanks.

 

[toxikon]

My soaps sweat lye water when I:
a.) Pour at thin emulsion instead of a thicker trace
b.) Overheat it (sometimes any kind of insulation can set it off)

Do you know if the liquid is lye water or fragrance? Have you had any sweating with non-fragranced soaps?

I tested my sweat and it was definitely lye, gave me a good zap! If you can narrow down what exactly the liquid is, that might help you figure out how to avoid it.

If you're dabbing away a significant amount of lye water, you may be upping your superfat which could lead to some softness. I always leave mine alone to completely reabsorb.

 

[NsMar42111]

I'm also in humid Florida and I've seen the sweat thing a few times when I do CP. Most of the times it's a certain FO/EO that does it (and I don't remember off the top of my head which ones).

If you could post your recipe, someone here might be able to look at it and see if there's anything off with the math. :bunny:

Oh, and forget making high salt bars until the humidity comes down unless you have a small area with a dehumidifer-mine sweated through several layers of cardboard for amonth until I gave up and tossed em!

 

[Abeltran]

Are you using distilled water to make your tea?

I don't think it's good to blow a fan directly on the soaps as they could develope a 'rind' of dry outer soap, and the interior won't lose moisture as effectively.

Hey, welcome to the forum!

Thank you for the welcome Millie, and thank you for your reply!! I hope I'm doing this correctly, as I'm not the best with social media (something my husband teases me mercilessly about!). In answer to your question though, yes, I always make sure I used distilled H2O when brewing my tea. I think you're absolutely right... I think in trying to "help" my soaps by putting the fan on them, I did more harm than good, as the 'rind' you describe is what this looks like. I think I may have inadvertently dried my soaps out too much, when if I hadn't meddled in the first place, the excess moisture probably would have reabsorbed on its own just fine. In the future, I think I'll just leave them be and see if that yields a better looking bar of soap. Thank you again for your help and insight!!

Welcome to the forum, Abeltran.

It sounds like the dry crusty top is probably soda ash, not at all uncommon.

If the tops are smooth-ish, you can plane the soda ash off. If they are intricate designs you don't want to plane off or slice off, then you can wash the soda ash off with a fine misting of distilled water, followed by a fine misting of 91% (or the highest percentage you can find to purchase locally) isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol.) This will bring back the vibrant colors and should also prevent further soda ash from forming if they are done curing.

Have you used any of them and found that the crustiness disappears with use? If so, then soda ash is the culprit.

As for sweating soaps, I have that same issue with some recipes more than others. In my experience it seems that it happens more often with soaps that have a high water content. Soaping with a higher lye concentration (lower amount of water) helps to prevent this.

However, some soap ingredients are more humectant than others, so the recipe can really make a difference as well. Honey, Aloe or added Glycerine will make for a more sweaty bar of soap. Glycerin is a byproduct of saponification, so adding extra humectants will just increase the issue.

Incidentally, tea doesn't saponify. Neither does water. Fats saponify. But the amount of liquid does surely play a part in how long the soap tends to 'dry'.

Thank you for the kind welcome earlene, and thank you SO MUCH for your advice!! I always thought soda ash was more powdery than what I was seeing on my soaps, but I took your very helpful advice and sprayed the soaps with some distilled water, followed by a spritz of 91% rubbing alcohol (I wish I knew where I could find 99%, but 91% did well too!), and WOW!!!!... What a world of difference that made! I did go ahead and tried out a bar as well, and both lather and moisturizing properties were great, so I think you nailed the problem directly on the head! Plus, after that first trial, the soap no longer appeared "crusty", and the vibrancy returned, so I really can't thank you enough for the shared knowledge! With my next batch, I think I will take your advice and cut down my liquid amount a little and see if that helps the soaps sweat less. I do use sodium lactate at 3% in my recipes however, and seeing as that is a humectant as well, I'm wondering if that is contributing to the sweating problem. Would you suggest I decrease my sodium lactate usuage rate as well? I also wanted to thank you very kindly in not making me feel like a complete idiot in explaining that water (tea) does NOT saponify lol! You can tell how much of a newbie I am in that I actually did not know that, so thank you for teaching me many new things today!!

It can be caused by the natural glycerin produced in soap making. Glycerin is a humectant and can attack moisture. In a humid climate that can be a problem. Why not buy a small room humidifier and place in the room where your soap is curing? I have a small humidifier in every room of our basement. You would be surprised how often I have to empty the collection tanks.

LOVE this suggestion!! It is so muggy & humid here, I think this would help tremendously. I know my husband has a few dehumidifiers just sitting around at his work not being used, so I'm going to have him ask his boss if he wouldn't mind me borrowing one. If not, it might just be time to purchase one, as I think the whole house would benefit from that right now! Thank you so much for the reply and suggestion! I'm originally from AZ, so soaping here in Florida has been drastically different... As well as a challenge!

My soaps sweat lye water when I:
a.) Pour at thin emulsion instead of a thicker trace
b.) Overheat it (sometimes any kind of insulation can set it off)

Do you know if the liquid is lye water or fragrance? Have you had any sweating with non-fragranced soaps?

I tested my sweat and it was definitely lye, gave me a good zap! If you can narrow down what exactly the liquid is, that might help you figure out how to avoid it.

If you're dabbing away a significant amount of lye water, you may be upping your superfat which could lead to some softness. I always leave mine alone to completely reabsorb.

Thank you so very much for the tips and advice on how to better avoid sweating soap toxikon! Now I am wondering if I'm possibly soaping at too high a temp, seeing as the house gets pretty warm as it is anyway (I keep the AC down as much as I can tolerate in order to save on energy costs). I'm wondering if you think I should skip insulating, or maybe just soap at a lower temp (or both)? I've always mixed my lye & oils at 120°F, but maybe that's too high for soaping in Florida in the middle of summer! I have tested the excess liquid, and luckily there's no zap to it, but there's really no smell to it either... It's the strangest thing! It just feels a little oily when rubbed between my fingers, and then I immediately wash my hands because I really can't pinpoint what It is exactly! You make an excellent point though... In dabbing away this excess liquid, I'm wondering if I'm taking away from the soap's moisturizing qualities? I'm going to follow your good advice and just leave it be to reabsorb on its own and see if that makes for a better looking finished product! Thank you so very much for your advice and knowledge on this, it is SO appreciated!

 

[toxikon]

Thank you so very much for the tips and advice on how to better avoid sweating soap toxikon! Now I am wondering if I'm possibly soaping at too high a temp, seeing as the house gets pretty warm as it is anyway (I keep the AC down as much as I can tolerate in order to save on energy costs). I'm wondering if you think I should skip insulating, or maybe just soap at a lower temp (or both)? I've always mixed my lye & oils at 120°F, but maybe that's too high for soaping in Florida in the middle of summer! I have tested the excess liquid, and luckily there's no zap to it, but there's really no smell to it either... It's the strangest thing! It just feels a little oily when rubbed between my fingers, and then I immediately wash my hands because I really can't pinpoint what It is exactly! You make an excellent point though... In dabbing away this excess liquid, I'm wondering if I'm taking away from the soap's moisturizing qualities? I'm going to follow your good advice and just leave it be to reabsorb on its own and see if that makes for a better looking finished product! Thank you so very much for your advice and knowledge on this, it is SO appreciated!

Yup, a lower temperature might solve your problem. Many of us use room temperature lye solution and melted oils between 90-110 degrees.

I use the temperatures above and never need to insulate to achieve gel (using a silicone loaf mold inside a wooden support).

 

[Abeltran]

I'm also in humid Florida and I've seen the sweat thing a few times when I do CP. Most of the times it's a certain FO/EO that does it (and I don't remember off the top of my head which ones).

If you could post your recipe, someone here might be able to look at it and see if there's anything off with the math. :bunny:

Oh, and forget making high salt bars until the humidity comes down unless you have a small area with a dehumidifer-mine sweated through several layers of cardboard for amonth until I gave up and tossed em!

Yes!! A fellow Floridian who knows the challenges of soaping in hot, sticky FL!! I'm originally from Arizona, so moving to Florida has brought a whole new set of "rules" for soap making! I had a good laugh about your salt bar experience because I can TOTALLY see that happening! I am really sorry that happened though, as I know what a huge bummer it is to have to toss all your hard work away. Would you mind taking a look at my recipe?! I'm just wondering if I'm going wrong somewhere since I've probably reformulated it about a dozen times now... Arrgh! It's a shaving bar I'm trying to perfect for my husband, so I went a little higher in my Castor Oil usuage rate per a suggestion I found online (I usually don't go above 5% when it comes to castor, but I upped it to 6.25% in this recipe). I'm wondering if that's causing some of the problem? Also, I want to superfat at 5%, but when I run this recipe through different lye calcs online, I get a slightly different result from each website as to how much lye to use! This is what my recipe currently looks like:
Lye- 4.35oz (I use Roebic brand, 100% Sodium Hydroxide crystals from my local Lowe's)
Earl Grey tea- 10.50oz (distilled water brewed, 2X stronger and then chilled til slushy)
0.95oz Sodium Lactate (added to my cooled lye solution)
Base Oils:
Olive Oil- 7.90oz
Coconut Oil (76)- 6.30oz
Sunflower Oil- 6.30oz
Avocado Oil- 4.80oz
Shea Butter- 4.70oz
Castor Oil- 2oz
(For a total of 32oz)
I add 4tsps of Kaolin Clay to my melted oils, and at trace I add .45oz Lavender EO, .25oz Eucalyptus EO, and .20oz of Cedarwood EO (to equal .90oz total of this essential oil blend).
I add my lye solution to the melted oils when both are 120°F, and after pouring and spraying tops with alcohol (I use a 12 cavity mold), I cover with a piece of cardboard and then wrap everything up in an old towel for 24hrs.

If you wouldn't mind taking a look and sharing some of your expertise, it would be SO EXTREMELY APPRECIATED!!! I had NO IDEA how much Kaolin Clay to use in this recipe (every website had a different answer!), so I just completely guessed! Do you think I'm using an appropriate amount? Any input you could give would be so awesome!!

Yup, a lower temperature might solve your problem. Many of us use room temperature lye solution and melted oils between 90-110 degrees.

I use the temperatures above and never need to insulate to achieve gel (using a silicone loaf mold inside a wooden support).

Oh this info changes so much for me!!! You are AWESOME toxikon!! I am definitely going to take my temps down now! Thank you so much for this, your help is so appreciated!

 

[earlene]

I do use sodium lactate at 3% in my recipes however, and seeing as that is a humectant as well, I'm wondering if that is contributing to the sweating problem. Would you suggest I decrease my sodium lactate usuage rate as well?

I am not sure about the sodium lactate. I don't use it much myself, but when I do it's at the lower 1% range. I have tested it to see if it makes much difference in only one particular recipe and found that I preferred that recipe without SL altogether. I even used two of those test soaps on my last roadtrip to test 2% SL vs 1% SL vs no SL and came to the conclusion that my soap with 2% SL was shrinking faster than the one with none. Perhaps it was because the SL in the soap was sucking up the ambient water in the air.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

As an aside, that is not a great shaving soap. You can shave with it, but it's basically a bath bar with some clay rather than a shaving soap. Check out the super shaving thread from songwind to see what a great shaving soap recipe looks like - I can link to it at the mo, though

 

[Abeltran]

I am not sure about the sodium lactate. I don't use it much myself, but when I do it's at the lower 1% range. I have tested it to see if it makes much difference in only one particular recipe and found that I preferred that recipe without SL altogether. I even used two of those test soaps on my last roadtrip to test 2% SL vs 1% SL vs no SL and came to the conclusion that my soap with 2% SL was shrinking faster than the one with none. Perhaps it was because the SL in the soap was sucking up the ambient water in the air.

Wow! This is very interesting and now the wheels are turning in my head! I'm thinking I want to try your experiment myself and see if perhaps I get a better bar without the SL altogether. It makes total sense that a higher SL usuage rate would make for a bar that wouldn't last as long, seeing as it's humectant properties would most likely absorb moisture from the air as well. When I was first deciding on if I wanted to use SL or not, I'd read online that it made for a longer lasting bar, but the science just doesn't add up and sounds conflicting to me... How could something that draws moisture to it last longer? There's so much incorrect advice out there when it comes to soap making and I think I've fallen victim to that a few times! It DOES make it possible for me to unmold my soaps sooner, but if the bar isn't going to last as long, the trade-off isn't worth it, and I'd rather just be patient vs producing a bar of soap that only lasts a few washes! I was reading all these wonderful things about SL from a site that sells it, so it's possible I fell for a marketing ploy! Thank you so much for sharing this with me! I'm going to make a batch sans the SL and see if that makes for a better bar of soap! Thank you again earlene for your wisdom and sharing your experience with this!

As an aside, that is not a great shaving soap. You can shave with it, but it's basically a bath bar with some clay rather than a shaving soap. Check out the super shaving thread from songwind to see what a great shaving soap recipe looks like - I can link to it at the mo, though

My apologies & gratitude! I should have been more clear to the artists who make TRUE shaving soap, as this is exactly what I'm going for... Just a bath bar that my husband can use for a quick, once-over shave while he's lathering up in the shower. My husband is military and has to shave daily (even a slight 5o'clock shadow is not permitted!). Most days he uses a cream with a brush his Grandfather passed down to him, but I wanted to make him a soap he could use on his body that could also be used for a quick shave on mornings where time is running short. I should have been more clear in my description of "shaving bar", as my recipe certainly is not a TRUE shaving soap. I found the thread you mentioned and was awed by the craftsmanship of what a true shaving soap is! I read it until 3 in the morning and was blown away by the art & skill it takes to make a genuine shaving soap in all its luscious, lather! I commend the art of this craft, as it is something WAY beyond the scope of my knowledge and abilities at this point! Perhaps one day I will get there and make my husband a real shaving soap! Thank you for sharing this with me! I started reading threads and could not STOP reading, as I was completely blown away by the skill and knowledge it takes! For now, I will continue to stick with the simplicity of soap making as I continue to learn, but my hat truly goes off to all the extremely skilled individuals who take the science of legitimate shaving soap and turn it into a work of art!

 

[bumbleklutz]

Welcome to the forum Abeltran! I'm also here in sunny, sticky Florida; and I feel your pain. There are definitely some challenges to soaping in Florida in the summertime, but on the other hand you never have to force gel; just insulate the mold and set it outside. :mrgreen:

I've had the same thing happen to my soaps when stored in an non air conditioned area. I haven't noticed the crustiness on the bars, but my goodness did they SWEAT! Even some bars that are nearly a year old.

I'm convinced that the sweating is caused by glycerin attracting the moisture from the air. In fact, and I'm a little embarrassed to admit this, I taste tested one of the well-cured sweaty bars to see if it was glycerin. Sure enough the sweaty liquid tasted quite sweet, and that leads me to believe that it is glycerin and water, as glycerin tastes sweet.

Usually, moving the soaps to a cooler less humid storage area stops the problem; and in my case the liquid reabsorbs without any problems.

 

[earlene]

Wow! This is very interesting and now the wheels are turning in my head! I'm thinking I want to try your experiment myself and see if perhaps I get a better bar without the SL altogether. It makes total sense that a higher SL usuage rate would make for a bar that wouldn't last as long, seeing as it's humectant properties would most likely absorb moisture from the air as well. When I was first deciding on if I wanted to use SL or not, I'd read online that it made for a longer lasting bar, but the science just doesn't add up and sounds conflicting to me... How could something that draws moisture to it last longer? There's so much incorrect advice out there when it comes to soap making and I think I've fallen victim to that a few times! It DOES make it possible for me to unmold my soaps sooner, but if the bar isn't going to last as long, the trade-off isn't worth it, and I'd rather just be patient vs producing a bar of soap that only lasts a few washes! I was reading all these wonderful things about SL from a site that sells it, so it's possible I fell for a marketing ploy! Thank you so much for sharing this with me! I'm going to make a batch sans the SL and see if that makes for a better bar of soap! Thank you again earlene for your wisdom and sharing your experience with this!

Albetran, I encourage you to do your own experiment. Your experience may be different, of course. There are so many variables in recipes, they can also play a part in the outcome. I have only done this experiment once, and cannot be positive that the result would be the same for all soap formulas.

Please share your results, as I am very interested to know if anyone else comes up with the same result. If you don't I would like to know that as well. Perhaps we can re-visit this in the future, as it certainly seems like something worthwhile.

P.S. Thank you for your kind words.

 

[NsMar42111]

Just came back to this, forum isn't notifying me of replies LOL.

I do not dabble in shave soaps at all at this point so I"m not a receipe help other than to say it'll work as a soap bar. I keep the castor at 5%, the one time I tried8% I noticed the bars seemed sticky. I was using sodium lactate but didn't add it by accident one batch and realized my bars were fine without it (but I do HP).

I don't soap when there's a thunderstorm outside or when the humidity is obnoxiously high (over 85%) because I notice the bars take longer to harden up. That means this time of year it's tricky to finda good time to soap! The room I soap in does not have a/c, if you soap in a/c it might be different for you. I do store them in an a/c'd room because I had too many DOS issues otherwise. However, a friend of mine cures in her garage with a box fan blowing on her bars all the time and does not have DOS issues so take me with a grain of salt.

This time of year is good for planning though