Natural alcohol based deodorant, but is bitterant unnatural?

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Sanman98

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So I started in medicinal herbs and perfuming, but selling premium perfume is expensive for some customers and selling drinks is tricky except for dry mixes.

I want to consider selling a alcohol-based spray deodorant with some tea tree oil and figure out the right ratio of water to not unsettle the oil, but dissolve some mineral salt too.

Now my main concern is I've heard you're not supposed to sell anything alcohol based without denaturing it or buying denatured and a bitterant added. But the place I might sell it is a natural store, so they might be opposed to that.
Here's an example of a perfumers alcohol with some other additives
Though Everclear or vodka works pretty well for personal use.


I might also need to decide what's a good (and safe) amount of essential oil to use. You might be familiar with or heard of IFRA standards.
I want enough tea tree to kill germs, be affordable enough for me and the customer, dissolve in the alcohol and water ratios. Probably add a Shake Before Use label.
Also how much and potent the mineral salt should be. Not sure how many times I should test these on myself and get familiar. Maybe as much salt as the water can hold. And as much water as the alcohol holds the oil. And enough oil to at least smell it enough. I could also compare different recipes, but I like to grasp why.
The main parts being the alcohol and tea tree potent enough to kill bacteria and keep fresh. And evaporate.
While however much water I add and mineral salt kills germs a little differently and won't evaporate as fast but gentler on skin and maybe slightly better cost margin.

Also maybe use a plastic tamper-proof seal. More important if selling top shelf perfumes.
Also noticed some essential oils have a pregnancy or nursing warning, so I could carry that over onto my labels if adding any of that.

Sorry if that's too much info. Just wanted to include background. Again, mostly concerned I might not be able to sell at all if denaturing and bittering the alcohol prevents me from some markets. Thanks
 

Zany_in_CO

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Just an FYI: SDA 40-B is the denatured alcohol approved by the FDA for use in bath and body products. It appears in the ingredient list of commercial spray mists as "alcohol denat."

Everclear or vodka works pretty well for personal use.
True. The difference is
190 Proof Everclear (95% grain alcohol by volume) may be hard to find depending on the state you live in. It's available in CO but I have to ask for it.

80 Proof Vodka (40% grain alcohol by volume) is readily available. It's ideal for making spray mists because it's 60% water. I use Tito's -- made in the USA!

TIP: 20% alcohol is a preservative in water-based products.
For spray mists, I use 20% alcohol to 80% water. Add an extra 80% distilled water to 80 Proof vodka to reduce the alcohol content to 20%.

Some thoughts:
Aloe Vera juice sub for all or part of the water portion.
In addition to tea tree EO, lavender and peppermint also have anti-bacterial and anti-fungal properties. Here's a list I found on line:

DIY - 2 INGREDIENT SPRAY DEODORANT

With their antibacterial and antimicrobial properties and pleasant scents, many essential oils are great for making natural deodorant.

lavender
clary sage
geranium
cedarwood
cypress
lemongrass
eucalyptus
tea tree
coriander
sandalwood
patchouli
peppermint or spearmint

citrus essential oils like bergamot, lemon, lime, tangerine, orange, and grapefruit (don’t use if your skin will be exposed to the sun, because citrus essential oils can cause photosensitivity)

Milk of Magnesia (MOM) when it’s used topically, it is an excellent natural deodorant. It’s because milk of magnesia is made of magnesium hydroxide suspended in water, and magnesium has excellent antibacterial and antimicrobial properties. It’s the magnesium that works so well as a deodorant. It inhibits bacteria from growing on your underarms. And since it’s bacteria that causes stink and body odor, if there isn’t bacteria, then there isn’t stink or body odor.
 
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Sanman98

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Thanks so much
But where can I buy SDA 40-B and is it acceptable in a store that sells exclusively natural and organic sorta stuff? It seems I might have to send a request on some commercial supply sites.
So you're saying SDA 40-B is natural? Because it might not have a bitterant? I'm not sure if a bitterant is required.
Or buy some kind of bitterant and denaturing solution to add. I can get Everclear easy.
And the perfumer's alcohol might be fine except whether the additives aren't natural for this venue.



--
The dead sea salt contains a lot of magnesium. I'm not sure if it's the most cost effective or beneficial, compared to straight magnesium, but science is always behind on discoveries of microscopic observations, whereas we often know the simple basics like it's natural and from that Dead Sea.

I don't really know how potent the oils or salt needs to be, or which is better. I'm not saying i know nothing, but I can generally smell and feel it and try it out and optimize a little.
For myself, I'd make it pretty potent (oil, salt) and maybe more alcohol than water, so the alcohol also kills bacteria and evaporates quickly. And to make sure all the oil stays dissolved, so i'm way above the dilution that it might (not) need shaken.
Else as I'm saying I'll have to experiment or read some recipes how low in alcohol dissolves the oil. And...how few drops of oil are effective.
Again, I can make it fine, but it'd be great to understand all the thresholds and ratios. I get the feeling that for sales, unless the consumer market is savvy or quality driven, they might be acquainted with diluted bulk/mass or dilutions for sensitive skin. I hope to sell the product I love in full portion.
 
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Zany_in_CO

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Continued...
I might also need to decide what's a good (and safe) amount of essential oil to use.
I want to consider selling a alcohol-based spray deodorant with some tea tree oil and figure out the right ratio of water to not unsettle the oil, but dissolve some mineral salt too.
Probably add a Shake Before Use label.
Essential Oil Use Rate: It varies with each EO. I use MMS Fragrance Calc:

Tea Tree EO.png

Since there is no option for sprays, I chose liquid soap. IMO and IME 1-5% would be okay to use if the EO is GRAS at IFRA 100%. Let your nose be the judge.

Mineral Salt: Dr Teal's Epsom salt is made of natural, pharmacy grade magnesium sulfate USP. Dissolve it in the water portion before adding to the vodka.

You don't need to shake if you make water-based EO.

To make water-based essential oil, use Polysorbate 80 or 20 at a rate of 1 part EO to 3-4 parts Poly. Do this before adding the water portion to the vodka.
Add the Polysorbate to the water first. Stir until clear. Add the EO and stir. Allow to set for an hour or so. If no oil rises to the top it's good to go. Add more poly if needed.

HTH and GOOD LUCK!
 

Sanman98

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But mainly, are these natural compliant?


The alcohol I first listed is
75% - 200 proof SDA 40-B (99.88 % Ethanol + 0.12 % t-butyl alcohol)
25% mix of:

  • 1,3 Propanediol
  • Cremophor RH 40®
  • Glucam™ P-20
  • DPG

And then the Polysorbate you mentioned



Also I might be best to get a milligram scale or something if I'm doing any serious measurements or estimate the percentage of drops.
And maybe if this isn't perfume, I don't need a special bitterant, but still this is the only source I know for denatured. I need to follow something, but all I know is maybe what not to do.

Maybe I don't need alcohol at all, but I'm not clear on what natural base or solutions to use.
I mean lots of soap these places sell might use lye, but maybe no artificial/synthetic junk and parabens or whatever.
 
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In the US, there is no standard definition of "natural" - so we cannot really answer that question for you.

The better question is whether your customers, or the store where you hope to sell it, would consider all of those ingredients to be "natural." Your best bet is to ask them. You can also look up each ingredient on websites like EWG Skin Deep to see how they rate it. Their ratings should give you a good idea of what a "natural" kind of store might accept or reject.
 

Sanman98

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Oh good idea
Thanks

I also see CreatingPerfumes.com has a denatured alcohol with different price and shipping, without some of the other additives. Seems to be straight SDA 40-B

so either Perfumer's Apprentice
$40 gallon +44 hazmat ship +21 shipping
with the additives
but also larger quantities for bulkrate

or Creating Perfumes $70 + $12 ship
no bulk discounts
 

Zany_in_CO

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Or buy some kind of bitterant and denaturing solution to add. I can get Everclear easy.
"Bitterant" is used to make the grain alcohol undrinkable. If you do your research, you may find a list of all SDA 40-Bs available. For example, one that's used in the medical profession contains 95% ethanol 5% lavender essential oil.

So it's up to you. You can purchase pricey "Perfumer's Alcohol" plus shipping, or buy Everclear at the liquor store -- albeit also pricey due to the Fed Excise Tax on all alcohol purchases. Once used in your product, the "bitterant" aspect has little or no practical relevance.

Ethanol (or ethyl alcohol) is the type of alcohol that over two billion people drink every day. This type of alcohol is produced by the fermentation of yeast, sugars, and starches.
 
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My point is that there is no uniform LEGAL definition for that word as it relates to labeling our products edit: soaps. Thank you, Earlene for helping me clarify that I wasn't referring to drugs, cosmetics, or food, and for confirming that the definition of “natural” does vary depending on the product and the location of the seller and the buyer. That was my original point - we cannot answer the OP’s question about whether something is “natural compliant” because there are too many unknowns about the product, the location of manufacture, location of sale - and what the OP as an individual believes that phrase actually means.
 
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earlene

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Well, I do think it is important for anyone planning to sell in a specific market within a specific country, state, province, whatever, that they understand the regulatory restrictions pertaining to any claims they make for said product. So, yes, I do kind of think it is too much to ask that we don't address such things.

Speaking only for U.S. regulations, there are some that do define 'natural'. The link here addresses the question as it relates to cosmetics. (This would apply to any soap with a cosmetic purpose or claim, such as shaving soap.) This link here addresses the FDA's current stance on 'natural' as it pertains to food. There is no link to the FDA's stance on the use of word 'natural' pertaining to drugs, because I couldn't find one.

The only link I will include at this time as regards to soap is not about any impending or existing legislation in the US to quantify what 'natural soap' is or how it is defined, because there is no current legal reference to be found (by me). The CSPC regulates true soap (not cosmetic soap and not drug soap) in the US (link) but they do not define 'natural soap'. The FDA regulates cosmetic soap and soap which is classified as a drug, so the cosmetics link in the second paragraph applies. They do however, regulate the Federal Hazardous Substances Act, so if any such ingredients are in soap, they would regulate that, since protecting the population from hazardous products is the entire purpose of the Consumer Safety Products Commission.

Beyond that, there are possibly state regulations that each soapmaker/seller needs to know about as it relates to their own personal situation. I know that historically Florida had much stricter regulations than the US government, as it relates to some of the products that soapmakers often make, including bath & body, cosmetics, etc., but I understand their laws have changed and may be less strict than previously. I do not know that for sure, being I do not live, nor do I sell any products in Florida, so have not looked into the changes.

Just as a point of interest, I include one more link (here) because the writer listed lawsuits against soap (& other) manufacturers who made claims about natural and/or organic &/or non-toxic and consumers were disappointed that the claims were false.
 
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So I started in medicinal herbs and perfuming, but selling premium perfume is expensive for some customers and selling drinks is tricky except for dry mixes.

I want to consider selling a alcohol-based spray deodorant with some tea tree oil and figure out the right ratio of water to not unsettle the oil, but dissolve some mineral salt too.

Now my main concern is I've heard you're not supposed to sell anything alcohol based without denaturing it or buying denatured and a bitterant added. But the place I might sell it is a natural store, so they might be opposed to that.
Here's an example of a perfumers alcohol with some other additives
Though Everclear or vodka works pretty well for personal use.


I might also need to decide what's a good (and safe) amount of essential oil to use. You might be familiar with or heard of IFRA standards.
I want enough tea tree to kill germs, be affordable enough for me and the customer, dissolve in the alcohol and water ratios. Probably add a Shake Before Use label.
Also how much and potent the mineral salt should be. Not sure how many times I should test these on myself and get familiar. Maybe as much salt as the water can hold. And as much water as the alcohol holds the oil. And enough oil to at least smell it enough. I could also compare different recipes, but I like to grasp why.
The main parts being the alcohol and tea tree potent enough to kill bacteria and keep fresh. And evaporate.
While however much water I add and mineral salt kills germs a little differently and won't evaporate as fast but gentler on skin and maybe slightly better cost margin.

Also maybe use a plastic tamper-proof seal. More important if selling top shelf perfumes.
Also noticed some essential oils have a pregnancy or nursing warning, so I could carry that over onto my labels if adding any of that.

Sorry if that's too much info. Just wanted to include background. Again, mostly concerned I might not be able to sell at all if denaturing and bittering the alcohol prevents me from some markets. Thanks
Re the water to alcohol. Here is a product that helps mix the two together for water mixed with eo’s. Will still need Germaben or similar.
Hope this is helpful.
 

TheGecko

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Just as a point of interest, I include one more link (here) because the writer listed lawsuits against soap (& other) manufacturers who made claims about natural and/or organic &/or non-toxic and consumers were disappointed that the claims were false.
Somewhat informative, but also very hypocritical:

The author says: All handmade hard bar soap is made with lye (sodium hydroxide), a man-made chemical. It is impossible to make hard bar soap without lye. The lye used in soap is a byproduct of the production of chlorine. Since there is no natural, organic source of raw sodium hydroxide lye, no sodium hydroxide lye is organic, and by US law, no soap made with it can be called “organic”.

Then two paragraphs later says: At Cosgrove & Lewis we never claim “chemical free” or “organic.” We only claim “all natural” for our soaps that are truly all natural and made with essential oils – about 2/3 of our product line. We even disclose the “natural” content of all our soaps as a percentage, usually 96% to 100% natural.

More hypocrisy: Some small soap companies twist words in their advertising to confuse you, saying things like “chemical free” or “no chemicals” in their advertising. Some say “no gluten” or “made without parabens” or “no detergents” or “no sulfates”. So what? Virtually all handmade soap is free of these ingredients. For all this really means, they might just as well list even more scary sounding ingredients they don’t use, like “no hot lava, uranium, razor blades, spiders, or snakes.”

From their website: What it's made without: Sulfates, Sulfides

There were also some other things that I found to be hypocritical, and a few things that outright pissed me off, but I'll refrain.

To be honest the whole "natural" and "organic" and "non-this" and "that-free" is a bunch of male bovine excrement. Saponification in itself...is a CHEMICAL process. Baking a cake is a CHEMICAL process. Just because something is 'organic,' doesn't mean that it's good for you. Just because something has been artificially produced, doesn't mean that it's bad for you.
 

Zany_in_CO

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Hope this is helpful.
Helpful indeed!
Thanks.gif


I learned something today! Actually, two things --
1) It's "Solubilizer" instead of "Solubizer" which I was formerly using! Oops!
2) The existence of Natural Solubilizers.

EDAN BOTANICALS SODIUM SUNFLOWERSEEDATE

Eden Botanicals is a great reference for EOs. Their description of how to make an essential oil water-soluble is spot on. It’s the same for using Polysorbates mentioned above.

HOW TO USE A SOLUBILIZER WITH ESSENTIAL OILS

Our non-GMO, nature-derived solubilizer is obtained through non-ionic hydrolysis of sunflower seed oil. The purpose of a solubilizer is to uniformly disperse essential oils and other aromatics into water or water-based products.

Depending on the essential oil, the ratio between essential oil and solubiliser usually ranges between 1:4 – 1:8. This means you blend one part essential oil with between 4 and 8 parts solubiliser. Then blend all your water-soluble ingredients together in a separate beaker, including your extracts and humectants.


I Googled “Natural solubilizers” and came up with more options:

NATURAL HIGH PERFORMING SOLUBILIZERS


Natural solubilizers are derived from natural sources such as almond, coconut, vegetables etc. For cosmetics manufacturers who are interested in offering chemical-free or organic products to consumers, natural solubilizers make it easy to meet various needs of formulations.

GUIDE TO 4 NATURAL SOLUBILIZERS


@Sanman98 -- This info could save you the hours upon hours of research that I did ages ago when I first started making spray products. Unfortunately, you need to do the research, as much as we would like to help, we can't do that for you, i.e., we can't get inside your head to get a clear vision of what you want to accomplish. I hope that makes sense?

Wishing you all the best on your formulating journey!
 
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paradisi

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Somewhat informative, but also very hypocritical:

The author says: All handmade hard bar soap is made with lye (sodium hydroxide), a man-made chemical. It is impossible to make hard bar soap without lye. The lye used in soap is a byproduct of the production of chlorine. Since there is no natural, organic source of raw sodium hydroxide lye, no sodium hydroxide lye is organic, and by US law, no soap made with it can be called “organic”.

Then two paragraphs later says: At Cosgrove & Lewis we never claim “chemical free” or “organic.” We only claim “all natural” for our soaps that are truly all natural and made with essential oils – about 2/3 of our product line. We even disclose the “natural” content of all our soaps as a percentage, usually 96% to 100% natural.

More hypocrisy: Some small soap companies twist words in their advertising to confuse you, saying things like “chemical free” or “no chemicals” in their advertising. Some say “no gluten” or “made without parabens” or “no detergents” or “no sulfates”. So what? Virtually all handmade soap is free of these ingredients. For all this really means, they might just as well list even more scary sounding ingredients they don’t use, like “no hot lava, uranium, razor blades, spiders, or snakes.”

From their website: What it's made without: Sulfates, Sulfides

There were also some other things that I found to be hypocritical, and a few things that outright pissed me off, but I'll refrain.

To be honest the whole "natural" and "organic" and "non-this" and "that-free" is a bunch of male bovine excrement. Saponification in itself...is a CHEMICAL process. Baking a cake is a CHEMICAL process. Just because something is 'organic,' doesn't mean that it's good for you. Just because something has been artificially produced, doesn't mean that it's bad for you.
They also don't list lye or sodium hydroxide in their ingredients. So beyond their slanging on others' wording, they seem unreliable as an information source.

It's too bad that things have gotten so heated over subjective terms.
 

paradisi

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As AliOop suggests, your best course might be to find the standard to which your target client/customer expects you to formulate. Then you can look at their list of acceptable ingredients and not have to guess. Good luck :)
 

TheGecko

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It's too bad that things have gotten so heated over subjective terms.
Hypocrisy isn't subjective, neither is lying about stuff.

I think I made a darn good bar of soap and won't hesitate to tell you, but I'm not going to trash other soap makers just to make a buck.

According to Cosgrove & Lewis, their soap is better because THEY use five natural oils and butters where most others only use three. Well golly gee, MY soap MUST be better than theirs because I use SIX "natural oils and butters".

They claim to use twice as much essential oils as most soap makers use. That's pretty concerning since 'most' soap makers that I know who use EOs are following safe usage guidelines...as do I.

Then they talk about "Lye Soap": a rustic, primitive semi-hard soap made from animal fats like tallow or lard, unscented except for the stench of rancid fat, in a hot process that may leave some residual lye in the finished soap, causing it to be harsh because of its high pH.

And Goat Milk Soap...according to them, it's a marketing scam. How raw goat's milk is poured into a strong lye mixture...I don't know anyone who makes GMS who does this. That if the GMS is 'yellow'...it's bad 'cuz it means that the milk curdled. That each bar only contains a few drops of GM...depends on the recipe. I do a full water replacement which is about a full ounce of GM per bar...pre cure. And then they worry about not using preservatives in GMS...that it's going to mold.

And they don't recommend purchasing purchase liquid soap because, well, according to them...it's make with homemade potash and all soap makers selling liquid soap haven't actually made it themselves because making potassium hydroxide is just too time consuming and unsafe so what they have done is to have purchased a commercial soap base and repackaged it, adding their own scents.

This kind of crap pisses me off...it should piss-off all of us. And if you're going to talk truth in advertising, better check yourself first.
 

paradisi

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Hypocrisy isn't subjective, neither is lying about stuff.

I think I made a darn good bar of soap and won't hesitate to tell you, but I'm not going to trash other soap makers just to make a buck.

According to Cosgrove & Lewis, their soap is better because THEY use five natural oils and butters where most others only use three. Well golly gee, MY soap MUST be better than theirs because I use SIX "natural oils and butters".

They claim to use twice as much essential oils as most soap makers use. That's pretty concerning since 'most' soap makers that I know who use EOs are following safe usage guidelines...as do I.

Then they talk about "Lye Soap": a rustic, primitive semi-hard soap made from animal fats like tallow or lard, unscented except for the stench of rancid fat, in a hot process that may leave some residual lye in the finished soap, causing it to be harsh because of its high pH.

And Goat Milk Soap...according to them, it's a marketing scam. How raw goat's milk is poured into a strong lye mixture...I don't know anyone who makes GMS who does this. That if the GMS is 'yellow'...it's bad 'cuz it means that the milk curdled. That each bar only contains a few drops of GM...depends on the recipe. I do a full water replacement which is about a full ounce of GM per bar...pre cure. And then they worry about not using preservatives in GMS...that it's going to mold.

And they don't recommend purchasing purchase liquid soap because, well, according to them...it's make with homemade potash and all soap makers selling liquid soap haven't actually made it themselves because making potassium hydroxide is just too time consuming and unsafe so what they have done is to have purchased a commercial soap base and repackaged it, adding their own scents.

This kind of crap pisses me off...it should piss-off all of us. And if you're going to talk truth in advertising, better check yourself first.
You've misunderstood me. I think that site is ... not as truthful as they could/should be. (I'm trying not to run afoul of commenting standards here.)

And I also think it's too bad that people are able to use both people's fears & misunderstandings, and our lack of regulatory clarity, to further mislead consumers.

But there will always be people looking for an angle to use against others, instead of the more difficult task of doing a really good job themselves. So I try to ignore them, and to focus instead on doing my best.
 

Sanman98

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Thanks so much all of you!
With a solubilizer maybe I can reduce the alcohol significantly or altogether, but would then need another preservative.
And at that point I wonder if I should do lotion, since I might as well buy some oils to compare.

I'm so new that while this is kinda simple there's a lot of little things. Also labeling my product and marketing. I've got a design.
It's so much simpler just enjoying it myself but with the fine tuning I might feel deserved to make a profit. I hope wherever I end up selling people appreciate the same qualities I afford.

Yeah so there's quite a few perfuming websites and some synthetics if I ever do both. I've ordered from Eden Botanicals before. I haven't been able to find a list of sources for denatured alcohol besides what I posted. I could browse a forum instead of Google unless anyone has the list.

Can I really just use Everclear? I've been told that subjects it to numerous other regulations. Or depending what I add to it.

And maybe label Shake Well or Avoid if Pregnant depending on the formulation. Wonder if I have to give a business address.
 

Zany_in_CO

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With a solubilizer maybe I can reduce the alcohol significantly or altogether, but would then need another preservative.
True. But the addition of a preservative is 1% or less so it doesn't impact the profit margin all that much. If you're concerned about the addition of chemicals, there are "so-called" natural preservatives on the market. You'll need to do the research. Of the ones I tried years ago they had issues like smelling "off" about 6 months down the road.

You can use the Search icon in the upper right corner of this page to learn more about preservatives. Here's an excellent one that includes labeling natural products.

Preservatives, Child Skn Facts, Organic Labeling
 
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