My Soap is bleeding... Break out the bandages...

[Mish]

I'm pretty sure this is a result of too much essential oils used. I was a bit heavy handed. :Kitten Love:

(Or could it be too much honey/or combination of too much of both?)

Here is my recipe:

35% Olive oil (annatto infused for color)
35% Coconut oil
20% Shea butter
10% Hemp oil
10% Mango butter

I used Sweet orange essential oil and Vanilla fragrance oils for scent.

Once I mixed my lye water with oils I separated at light trace because I wanted to add some honey to the separated batch for some colour variation...

As you can see the part that is bleeding is from the darker honey portion of the soap.

My question to the group is:

• Do you think this will cure alright and be a useable bar of soap?
• Is this a result of too much essential oil or honey used n this batch?

 

[Seifenblasen]

How much essential oil and how much honey did you put in? Also, do you detect a burnt smell in the part with honey?

 

[Mish]

No burnt smell at all in fact it smells fantastic... I possibly put 1 oz of essential oil... ( I don't usually weight it out) I've been too light on the scents and I think I just went a little overboard this time.

In your experience does it stop bleeding after a while?
( I should have taken the separated portion and added it back into the other part and this wouldn't have happened...)

Oh and I forgot to put in my previous post that I super-fatted at 8%

 

[danahuff]

How much honey did you use? Honey can cause your soap to overheat. Smell the pockets. If they smell kind of bad, then it's probably just overheated, and you can rescue the soap by rebatching it. That happened to me before, too. Like Seifenblasen said, though, it helps if you say how much honey and essential oil you used.

 

[Mish]

I also didn't measure the honey...:shifty: I've used that much honey before but usually in the full batch and not a separated out portion so it might have been too much for that amount that was separated out.

 

[Mish]

No burnt smell at all... That part smells very yummy actually.

 

[danahuff]

Hmm. Well, without knowing for sure, I'm going to guess too much honey and essential oil. I use anywhere from 3-5% of essential oil per pound of oils. Honey, I usually only use a tablespoon, and I remove some of the water before I add my lye to it, and I dissolve the honey in that water.

My experience was that the batch was ruined and had to be rebatched, but others might weigh in with their own experiences.

It is a good idea to weigh everything or with some additives, like honey, to measure it so you know how much. You will be able to duplicate the batches you like if you keep notes about your recipes.

 

[Seifenblasen]

If it smells great and not burnt, and you don't mind a wounded looking soap, you can drain the "blood", let it cure for a few days, zap test it. If it is fine, then just let it finish curing.

A second option is to re-batch. I hate re-batching and cannot give you much advice. Do a search on the forum and there should be many threads on the subject.

A third option is, if the soap is not lye heavy, you can smash/chop it up and mix it in an equal or larger amount of soap. I have done this a couple times. Just make another batch of soap without honey and go light with essential oils, and add the old soap pieces to the new soap at trace and pour as usual. If you make the new soap without color, you can actually get a pretty mosaic look.

 

[Lindy]

Okay first - and I apologize to everyone who has already heard from me on this before.... Essential Oils should not be used at higher than 3% of total batch. Essential Oils are over the counter drugs and need to be treated with respect that you would give any other drug. Essential oils just smell better than most medicines.

On to your problem. Have you zap tested your soap yet? That is going to be first and foremost as to whether it will become usable.

 

[Mish]

Hi All,
　
Zapping is testing it with your tongue right? I'm still a super newbie at soaping.

I can do that when I go home tonight. I only just cut it last night, is there a time frame to when I should do the zap test?

Also while talking about this I should probably get myself some PH strips as well... roblem:

On my EO I should calculate .3 on my soap calculator right?

I will need to get a smaller scale that can pick up on such lighter weights. Before I was going way under on my EO and apparently I just went to the opposite extreme... ( typical of me)

 

[Seifenblasen]

Shawnee did a wonderful tutorial on zap testing! Not sure about pH strips, many people use them, but just as many soap successfully without them.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/f11/zap-test-visual-guide-30690/

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

Mish ~ I don't wanna be Debbie Downer or The Soap Police, but...if you don't zap test or otherwise test the pH of your soap (especially as a new soapmaker), nor weigh your EOs (or other additives) - how do you know your soap is safe to sell (you stated you're a newbie soapmaker, but you have an Etsy shop thru your FB sig line)? EOs are NOT just fragrance, and should not be treated as "just fragrance"...and while there may be a debate as to what benefits of EOs survive the saponification process or exactly how much EO is safe in CP soapmaking, there are definitely common accepted practices pertaining to their use. As Lindy stated above, this forum holds a 3% usage rate...whether you hold to that yourself is up to you, but you should know exactly (by weight) how much you used in EVERY batch you make to sell, and what the contraindications of the particular EOs you chose to use are.

Your soaps in your Etsy shop are beautiful...but I would suggest that you do not list the "benefits" of the EOs you use...it goes against the FDA soap and/or cosmetic labeling regulations, and puts it in the "drug" category. I personally only use EOs and believe that they are beneficial (and that some of it makes it through the saponification process)...but I can't label it as such unless I'm willing to pay for independent lab testing and submit the results to the FDA for evaluation
Your best bet is to label it with each and every thing you put in your soap and let the consumer do the research where the EO benefits are concerned.

 

[Amybell]

On my EO I should calculate .3 on my soap calculator right?

To get the 3% calculation, you would multiply by .03, not .3 (.3 is 30%).

 

[Mish]

I zap tested it *yuck* and it tastes like soap and no battery feeling to the tongue however... I could not stand the imperfection of my bleeding parts of the soap so last night I chopped out all the "good parts" into nice crinkled cut squares of verious sizes and I plan to use them in another batch as Seifenblasen suggested... I think I will be much happier with that. It's too bad I had to have so much waste but I understand it's all a learning curve and serves me right for being so spastic with measurements... Lesson learned.

 

[Mish]

To get the 3% calculation, you would multiply by .03, not .3 (.3 is 30%).

Amybell, Thak you for the correction ;-)

 

[Mish]

Shawney,

Thank you for the advise, I did not realize that I couldn't list the benefits of the EO's. I need to look into labeling laws some more and not just follow suite on what other people have done. I am really new to creating my own recipes, up until now I have been following other people's recipes in soap books to the T with the amount of drops of EO's measurements ( usually by drops and not by wt)… I've been doing that for some time Probably almost a year…( However I don't claim to have been making soap for a year because I've just been coping recipes up until about December) The soaps I have on the Etsy are recipes that I have done more than once and have used myself. I just started these last 2 months playing with making my own recipes and learning more about how all the oils interact with each other and what kind of quality of soap they make… While it is safe and easy to follow someone else's recipe I've been taking a strive to take the next step and be a "real soaper" and not just a copying someone's recipe and making it pretty… I feel like that is a step close to doing MP and calling it "homemade" ( which I hate with a passion)… These experiments posting are not going to go up for sale until I've used them personally. However, it is definitely food for thought about selling soaps that I have not tested the PH on even if I copied a published recipe and have used it myself… I want to make sure I am doing everything I should be… I want to be a responsible soap maker and that is why I joined this community. Thank you for going gentle on me.

 

[Lindy]

Off Topic Warning

Shawnee - According to Robert Tisserand the therapeutic values of EO's do survive the saponification process intact even if the fragrance doesn't. I'm not sure that he has actually had any soap analyzed or if this is just his opinion.

Returning to our regular scheduled topic....

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

Can you please reference or site his statement of that quote, or a lab study or other scientific research where saponification and essential oils is concerned? I'd be more than happy to have more information on that specific topic.

 

[Lindy]

Shawnee here is the clip where I asked the question:

• 
  Linda
  June 28, 2011 at 7:41 pm
  Hello, great interview thank you. I would like to ask if there has been a study done to see if any of the therapeutic properties of essential oil remain intact through the process of saponification. Do the properties change in any way through the process considering they are exposed to high heat as well as the chemical transformation taking place as the soap saponifies?
  Thanks in advance….
  
• 
  Robert Tisserand
  June 28, 2011 at 11:10 pm
  Hi Linda. I am not aware of any peer-reviewed studies that directly compare soap without essential oil to the same soap with essential oil, in terms of antibacterial or any other properties. But, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that essential oils in soap are active. The heat may cause some loss of essential oil molecules through evaporation, but it should not cause any significant chemical changes. The contact with alkali will cause some chemical changes, and of course that’s what Kevin describes in the interview. These changes may or may not result in an alteration of therapeutic properties. That depends on which properties you are measuring and also on which constituents you are talking about, so there isn’t a simple answer. Except perhaps to say that in MOST instances essential oils do in fact retain their therapeutic action!
  

And here is the topic that I was responding to with questions.... http://roberttisserand.com/2011/06/essential-oils-in-soap-interview-with-kevin-dunn/

I need to point out that Kevin Dunn (Caveman Chemistry) also feels the essential oils remain active with a chart....

 

[AlchemyandAshes]

Shawnee here is the clip where I asked the question:



And here is the topic that I was responding to with questions.... http://roberttisserand.com/2011/06/essential-oils-in-soap-interview-with-kevin-dunn/

I need to point out that Kevin Dunn (Caveman Chemistry) also feels the essential oils remain active with a chart....

Glad to see that particular subject answered. I've always assumed that if volatile scent constituents survive, then so must some of the benefits or hazards.
I so wish someone would do a peer reviewed study specifically on saponification and EOs so we aren't relying on anecdotal evidence and conjecture. I understand the basic alkali interaction with EO chemical constituents and how that may change some of them more than others.

I should amend that "wish" to: I wish they would do more peer reviewed studies, lab tests, and the like on EOs in general so they would be more respected here in the US as more than "perfume".