My First Liquid Soap Adventure

[DesertRose]

I would like to say Hello to you all from Turkey. Just joined here to thank you, especially to @DeeAnna @IrishLass because inspired by them a lot and nearly found all the answers that i was looking for while investigating how to make liquid soap by reading their threads and replies. I'm not a chemist or a soap maker, just interested in cosmetics, scents and natural soaps/shower gels. I also have a great interest in Phytotherapy and wellness. My favorite oil is Coconut and Olive, which i consume daily in my life.

I've been so satisfied by the result that i got from my first liquid soap attempt. Here is my recipe;

Total Oil Weight: 830 GR
Water as percent of oil: %33
Superfat: %5

- Coconut Oil (76 F): %30
- Olive Oil: %58
- Castor Oil: %5
- Palm Oil: %7

KOH Amount: 164 gr
Water Amount: 164 gr
Glycerin: 110 gr
Sugar: 8 gr (%1 of total oil weight)

While melting my oils slowly, i heated my 164 gr distilled water and dissolved 8 gr of sugar to increase bubbles of my soap without burning it. Once the sugar is melted, i took off and let it cool. After cooling off, added my KOH to the water and then added the glycerin to calm the KOH. Then checked the temperatures and wait for the KOH and the oils to come to appropriate temperature levels. Once the oil mix is around 77 C and the KOH 60 C, i poured the KOH slowly over the oils. Then i stirred them approx. 30 min.

1) After 30 minutes of stirring;

2) After 3 or 4 hours, hard but creamy, the saponification process seems to be completed;

3) I diluted 50 gr of soap paste with 100 gr distilled water (just for try ingand not very slowly, wondered the result)

4) Tried the soap and it was wonderful; lots of bubbles, creamy and much moisturizing effect.

5) Then i diluted it again to use as soap foam because i always use my soaps as foam. Normally i buy the soap from market and dilute it with some water. Again, the foam performance was also wonderful, even more bubbles than market soap

The only concern for me is the smell. Well, it's not bat at all but the scent is a little castor oil side. I added some Bergamot and Orange essential oils and it's so much better now.

Do you have any advice for me ? I would likte to make a new batch to develop myself and this time i aim to focus on scent. What can i use for a nice scented liquid soap ? I like mango for instance. What oils can i combine with mango ?

Thanks in advance

 

[AliOop]

Welcome, and congratulations on a successful first batch. It looks wonderful!

May I make one suggestion? Next time, don't wait for your oils and lye solution to cool off. Mixing them together while they are hot will increase the speed at which you reach trace. In other words, you can spend less time stirring or stick-blending, as the case may be.

I know what you mean about the castor smell - it's not terrible, but not terribly appealing, either. If you want to stay with essential oils, many nice scent blends are available on EOCalc.com. If you are willing to use fragrance oils, then the sky is the limit, assuming you have those available for shipping to Turkey. There is a good thread right here that might get you started on finding suppliers..

For liquid soap, you probably need to stay at 2% or less of scent, or else use a solubilizer like Polysorbate 80 so that the EOs or FOs don't separate into a little oil slick on top of your soap.

 

[DesertRose]

Thank you !

May I make one suggestion? Next time, don't wait for your oils and lye solution to cool off. Mixing them together while they are hot will increase the speed at which you reach trace.

Oh really ? I read somewhere that the optimum temperature values are 170 F and 140 F for the oils and lye. If it doesn't affect the quality of the soap negatively, then i'll absolutely make in this way the next time.

Actually the smell a little disappeared after 48 hours, not a serious problem now.

I considered Polysorbate 80 but then i saw a comment by Deeanna and she was telling that adding Polysorbate make the soap unnatural. Then i left this idea after seeing that.

 

[AliOop]

For CP, I actually soap at room temperature with premade lye solution, and barely warmed master-batched oils. Works very well! Now if you have some ingredients like beeswax or PKO, your oils might need to be a bit warmer.

For liquid soap, I heat the oils to somewhere between 150F to 170F, and I do try not to get hotter than that for my oils. But I definitely add the freshly-made KOH solution to those oils immediately, without checking the lye temp. That extra warmth really does help you get to trace faster, but you do want to add the lye to the oils fairly slowly so you don't end up with a volcano.

As long as you keep your scent load down around 2%, you probably won't need PS80. But not all EOs or FOs are well-behaved in LS, so it can be a bit of trial and error.

 

[DesertRose]

@AliOop I actually added %3 EO but after checking the smell i found it insufficient for me and dropped a little more orange oil. The scent is not great but ok, however EO increased cloudiness. Is PS80 healthy and safe for skin ?

 

[AliOop]

@AliOop I actually added %3 EO but after checking the smell i found it insufficient for me and dropped a little more orange oil. The scent is not great but ok, however EO increased cloudiness. Is PS80 healthy and safe for skin ?

If you can get away with scenting your LS soap to the level that you like without using it, then that's awesome! No point in using something you don't need, right?

EOs and FOs do tend to make LS a bit more cloudy, but as long as the cloudiness isn't coming from something inappropriate (bacterial/fungal growth or the like), then clarity is a personal preference, nothing more. Don't let any LS books tell you otherwise - at least one of them does, for no good reason.

RE PS80, I've read both sides of the debate. While it's not considered "natural," I personally am not convinced that it is toxic or dangerous in small amounts on the skin. I do prefer to avoid foods with PS-80 (and many other additives), for reasons that are too boring to detail here. But ingesting PS-80 is quite a different issue (to me, at least) than having a small amount of it briefly in contact with my skin before washing it away. Even though I have very sensitive skin that reacts to a lot of things, PS80 doesn't bother my skin at all.

For reference, I do tend to land on the crunchy side or cautious side to these kinds of debates. My personal decision was that I'd use PS80, in small amounts, whenever it really makes a difference in my products. For me, that is in liquid soap, and in bath bombs. The amount of PS80 that comes in contact with my skin for any single use of either of those is so small, the benefits of use are significant, and there aren't many or sometimes any alternatives that will do the job. I have tried detergent-based dish soap instead of PS80 in bath bombs; it does work, but it isn't quite as effective as PS80, and I don't think it is any more "natural."

Bottom line, not everyone will feel the same way about PS80, and the answer may also depend on how it is used, and how much. You'll have to decide what is best for you and those who will use your products.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Do you have any advice for me ?

When using SoapCalc to make liquid soap, there are a few changes to the Default setting (that is intended for NaOH bar soap):

I made my first LS in 2004. At that time, the only reference available was Catherine Failor's book on Liquid Soap Making that got the ball rolling. A lot has changed over the years but one thing. When I checked all of her recipes, they all used Water : Lye Ratio 3:1 But there are exceptions to that.

She also used 10% excess KOH which then needed to be "neutralized" during the dilution and sequester phases. That is no longer an accepted practice and today's calculators don't allow for that. Using 0% SF is ideal because of the "unsaponifables" in oils like Olive Oil and similar, although there are exceptions to that as well. The fragrance is calculated at "0" because it's factored in later according to the weight of the fully diluted paste.

Once the oil mix is around 77 C and the KOH 60 C, i poured the KOH slowly over the oils. Then i stirred them approx. 30 min.

Well done. Combine when oils are 160°F (71°C) and lye solution 140°F (60°C). When using glycerin to make the lye solution, you can go hotter 220°F? (104°C?) As @AliOop mentioned, that will make the batch trace faster. Otherwise, stir by hand, then SB (on & off) to hard trace 10-15 minutes over low heat 160°F (71°C). Let set 5 minutes off heat to make sure it doesn’t separate. Then you can process with whichever way you prefer, CP, HP, or Oven Process.

Sugar: 8 gr (%1 of total oil weight)

Once again, additives used in NaOH bar soaps don't always work well in LS. Keep an eye on your diluted sample to see if it grows nasties over time or not. I don't know about that. But. If you want to boost lather, you can go much higher with Coconut Oil or use Castor Oil and skip the sugar. I make 100% coconut oil for laundry and also use it in a foamer (1 part LS to 3 parts water) sometimes. I don't find it to be drying at all. But that's just me. YMMV

- Coconut Oil (76 F): %30
- Olive Oil: %58
- Castor Oil: %5
- Palm Oil: %7

Coconut Oil 50% + 50% Olive Oil & CastorOil or any other oils of choice.
Palm Oil is fine but if you want clear soap, skip it. Read more:

What to Expect From Various Oils in LS
That's all for now. HTH (Hope This Helps!)

 

[DesertRose]

When using SoapCalc to make liquid soap, there are a few changes to the Default setting (that is intended for NaOH bar soap):

View attachment 71741
I made my first LS in 2004. At that time, the only reference available was Catherine Failor's book on Liquid Soap Making that got the ball rolling. A lot has changed over the years but one thing. When I checked all of her recipes, they all used Water : Lye Ratio 3:1 But there are exceptions to that.

She also used 10% excess KOH which then needed to be "neutralized" during the dilution and sequester phases. That is no longer an accepted practice and today's calculators don't allow for that. Using 0% SF is ideal because of the "unsaponifables" in oils like Olive Oil and similar, although there are exceptions to that as well. The fragrance is calculated at "0" because it's factored in later according to the weight of the fully diluted paste.



Well done. Combine when oils are 160°F (71°C) and lye solution 140°F (60°C). When using glycerin to make the lye solution, you can go hotter 220°F? (104°C?) As @AliOop mentioned, that will make the batch trace faster. Otherwise, stir by hand, then SB (on & off) to hard trace 10-15 minutes over low heat 160°F (71°C). Let set 5 minutes off heat to make sure it doesn’t separate. Then you can process with whichever way you prefer, CP, HP, or Oven Process.


Once again, additives used in NaOH bar soaps don't always work well in LS. Keep an eye on your diluted sample to see if it grows nasties over time or not. I don't know about that. But. If you want to boost lather, you can go much higher with Coconut Oil or use Castor Oil and skip the sugar. I make 100% coconut oil for laundry and also use it in a foamer (1 part LS to 3 parts water) sometimes. I don't find it to be drying at all. But that's just me. YMMV

Coconut Oil 50% + 50% Olive Oil & CastorOil or any other oils of choice.
Palm Oil is fine but if you want clear soap, skip it. Read more:

What to Expect From Various Oils in LS
That's all for now. HTH (Hope This Helps!)

Thank you so much ! I'd like to use more Castor Oil but it's said that it makes the soap too sticky over %5.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Thank you so much ! I'd like to use more Castor Oil but it's said that it makes the soap too sticky over %5.

That's true for NaOH hard bars. You have a little more leeway making KOH liquid soaps.

 

[DesertRose]

Can i use my liquid soap as body wash or shampoo ? Do i need to add anything for using as body wash ?

 

[Misschief]

Can i use my liquid soap as body wash or shampoo ? Do i need to add anything for using as body wash ?

You can certainly use it as a body wash; it is soap, after all. As for shampoo, soap is not recommended for hair; the pH is too high. Some can use soap on their hair but it really isn't recommended.

 

[Misschief]

Thank you so much ! I'd like to use more Castor Oil but it's said that it makes the soap too sticky over %5.

In bar soap, as Zany wrote, over 5% can make soap sticky. However, it's great in liquid soap. I use it at about 15%. A great reference for liquid soap, by the way, is the Ultimate Guide to Liquid Soap by Ashley Green. It has quite a large section explaining the science behind liquid soapmaking and what the different oil properties bring to the end product. I can't recommend it highly enough. It is an investment but well worth it, imho.

 

[DesertRose]

In bar soap, as Zany wrote, over 5% can make soap sticky. However, it's great in liquid soap. I use it at about 15%. A great reference for liquid soap, by the way, is the Ultimate Guide to Liquid Soap by Ashley Green. It has quite a large section explaining the science behind liquid soapmaking and what the different oil properties bring to the end product. I can't recommend it highly enough. It is an investment but well worth it, imho.

Thank you
How about adding salty water or Xantham Gum for thickening in order to use as body wash ?

 

[Misschief]

Thank you
How about adding salty water or Xantham Gum for thickening in order to use as body wash ?

You can do that if you want it thicker. I just put mine in a pump (not foamer) bottle.

 

[DesertRose]

You can do that if you want it thicker. I just put mine in a pump (not foamer) bottle.

The problem with my liquid soap is cloudiness due to palm oil. If i don't use above %10 palm oil, longevity value drops below %17. If i use higher percentage, longevity goes up but it causes a cloudy soap. I don't know what to do. I know that hard oils add longevity feauture but also they affect transparency. I'm stuck.

 

[Misschief]

The problem with my liquid soap is cloudiness due to palm oil. If i don't use above %10 palm oil, longevity value drops below %17. If i use higher percentage, longevity goes up but it causes a cloudy soap. I don't know what to do. I know that hard oils add longevity feauture but also they affect transparency. I'm stuck.

It's the amount of unsaponifiables in the oil. This is my Shea LS. Shea has a lot of unsaponifiables in it and there's not much I can do to make it clear. I've made this particular recipe a couple of times and it's always cloudy. If you're using a regular soap calculator and using those numbers, I don't think you're seeing the whole picture. Most of them are geared to bar soap. Liquid soap is a different beast.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Can i use my liquid soap as body wash or shampoo ?

Certainly. I've been using lye-based shampoo bars and LS shampoo ever since I first started soaping in 2003. Before joining SMF I was a member of many different forums and Yahoo Groups where lye-based shampoo was common. Imagine my shock and dismay when I first joined SMF in 2017 to find that the topic of "Shampoo Bars" was banned because the topic was so emotionally charged. It's okay to discuss it now, but there isn't much knowledge or experience available within the present-day SMF community. Just about everyone here does Syndet shampoo.

As for shampoo, soap is not recommended for hair; the pH is too high.

This is a well-intended but typical comment by the majority of SMF who, most likely, went with the SynDet Shampoo crowd without ever attempting to make a lye-based natural shampoo. I didn't learn to make soap to go back to using synthetic-detergents on my hair and body. It's one of the reasons I started making my own soap and shampoo in the first place. You can learn to do the same at this website:

Alaiyna B's Blogspot - Liquid Soaps & Shampoos - Tutorial with pictures.

Alaiyna B's Blogspot - Tutorials, Liquid Soap - covers many topics.

If your hair is used to store-bought shampoo, there is a period of adjustment for using natural shampoos. It's important to rinse with increasingly cool water until it's as cold as you can stand it. Then follow up with an apple cider vinegar rinse to get all the remaining soap residue out and to restore the acid balance of the scalp.

NOTE: That is also true when using soap for laundry. If your clothes are dingy and stiff it's because you haven't gotten all the soap scum out.

Read more here:
Everything About Natural Shampoo Bars

 

[AliOop]

I agree with @Misschief. The soap calcul8r numbers are for bar soap.

If you think about it, how could there be a longevity number for LS? It doesn't make sense. Also, many oils behave differently in LS than they do in bar soap. The book that Misschief recommended is an amazing resource for learning about LS. I haven't found any other resource that provides as much detailed information in one place.

 

[Misschief]

Certainly. I've been using lye-based shampoo bars and LS shampoo ever since I first started soaping in 2003. Before joining SMF I was a member of many different forums and Yahoo Groups where lye-based shampoo was common. Imagine my shock and dismay when I first joined SMF in 2017 to find that the topic of "Shampoo Bars" was banned because the topic was so emotionally charged. It's okay to discuss it now, but there isn't much knowledge or experience available within the present-day SMF community. Just about everyone here does Syndet shampoo.


This is a well-intended but typical comment by the majority of SMF who, most likely, went with the SynDet Shampoo crowd without ever attempting to make a lye-based natural shampoo. I didn't learn to make soap to go back to using synthetic-detergents on my hair and body. It's one of the reasons I started making my own soap and shampoo in the first place. You can learn to do the same at this website:

Alaiyna B's Blogspot - Liquid Soaps & Shampoos - Tutorial with pictures.

Alaiyna B's Blogspot - Tutorials, Liquid Soap - covers many topics.

If your hair is used to store-bought shampoo, there is a period of adjustment for using natural shampoos. It's important to rinse with increasingly cool water until it's as cold as you can stand it. Then follow up with an apple cider vinegar rinse to get all the remaining soap residue out and to restore the acid balance of the scalp.

NOTE: That is also true when using soap for laundry. If your clothes are dingy and stiff it's because you haven't gotten all the soap scum out.

Read more here:
Everything About Natural Shampoo Bars

That's why I worded it the way I did, Zany. I qualified it by saying some can use it but it isn't recommended. The fact that the pH is too high is just that.... a fact. Not wanting to start an argument but just wanted to point out to a new liquid soapmaker that it isn't recommended even though some, like you, can and do use it without issues. This is not the place to get into this discussion. It's been written about many, many times and if the OP wants to look it up, she is more than welcome to delve into the fray. Just not here. And, incidentally, I grew up using soap based shampoos because it was cheap. My hair did not like it.... at all.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

How about adding salty water or Xantham Gum for thickening in order to use as body wash ?

Thickening with salt water is a little tricky but easy once you get the hang of it. It is good for thickening 100% olive oil LS or similar. Generally speaking it does not thicken LS with coconut oil at 20% or higher, although there are exceptions.

There is more info about thickening LS on Alaiyna B's Blogspot linked above. My recommendation is to achieve a nice viscosity is by formulating with 50% coconut oil or PKO plus 50% liquid oils of choice, i.e., olive, almond, castor, etc.