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My Eczema soap is still too harsh...

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Frenchy-C

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hello soap “Gurus”

I have only been making soaps for about 2 months now...real Green here!

I tried to make an eczema soap recipe for my boys, but i still find it harsh. It cleans too much. LOL
Let me know how I could improve.
This was the recipe I used from “lovely greens”. Modified a bit for HP. Actually its CTFHP

44% OO, 31% CO , 10% Shea butter, 10% Mango butter and 5% Castor oil.

After the cook added the yogurt ( for Fluidity)
Fresh Aloe and NEEM OIL. 5% Which would bring my superfat to 8%.
 

AliOop

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Hi there, a lot of people find CO very drying, even with 8% SF. If you aren't opposed to using lard, it is often used in soaps for people with skin conditions. My husband has psoriasis, so his soap includes lard, avocado oil, neem oil, shea, cocoa butter, and colloidal oats. Goat's milk can be used instead of water. I actually just made my first batch using powdered goat's milk instead of liquid; it was a lot easier than freezing the GM and slowly adding the lye bit by bit. Now I have to wait for them to cure to see if the "feel" is the same.
 

Obsidian

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I would strip the recipe down and get rid of the butters. Shea can actually irritate some skin conditions.
I'm going to second lard, super mild and makes a nice hard bar.

Lard 50%
Coconut 10%
Olive 20%
Neem 10%
Castor 10%

Or even simpler. 5% sf for both
Lard 80%
Coconut 10%
Castor 10%
 

cmzaha

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I would go with Obsidian's suggestions and maybe try no oatmeal. Not all can use oatmeal. As a child, I was severely allergic to oatmeal baths. It has eased but I still do not use oatmeal too much in my own soaps.
 

Frenchy-C

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Hi there, a lot of people find CO very drying, even with 8% SF. If you aren't opposed to using lard, it is often used in soaps for people with skin conditions. My husband has psoriasis, so his soap includes lard, avocado oil, neem oil, shea, cocoa butter, and colloidal oats. Goat's milk can be used instead of water. I actually just made my first batch using powdered goat's milk instead of liquid; it was a lot easier than freezing the GM and slowly adding the lye bit by bit. Now I have to wait for them to cure to see if the "feel" is the same.
Thanks, let us know how this new GM feels.

I would strip the recipe down and get rid of the butters. Shea can actually irritate some skin conditions.
I'm going to second lard, super mild and makes a nice hard bar.

Lard 50%
Coconut 10%
Olive 20%
Neem 10%
Castor 10%

Or even simpler. 5% sf for both
Lard 80%
Coconut 10%
Castor 10%

Hello,

I have difficulties finding Lard without preservatives. But I am able to find Tallow. Would this be similar?

Thanks
 
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Dahila

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tallow will up you cleansing number, What preservative you mean? BHT and Citric acid is in lard and it is perfectly save for our skin especially in soap. I have eczema and use that lard in soaps. The key is like OBsidian said low cleansing. low Coconut oil . Some people can not use CO at all then maybe babassu oil.
 

kasandrashy

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hello soap “Gurus”

I have only been making soaps for about 2 months now...real Green here!

I tried to make an eczema soap recipe for my boys, but i still find it harsh. It cleans too much. LOL
Let me know how I could improve.
This was the recipe I used from “lovely greens”. Modified a bit for HP. Actually its CTFHP

44% OO, 31% CO , 10% Shea butter, 10% Mango butter and 5% Castor oil.

After the cook added the yogurt ( for Fluidity)
Fresh Aloe and NEEM OIL. 5% Which would bring my superfat to 8%.
Its my guess that there is too much coconut oil in this recipe I would strip it back to about 10% you can replace it with olive oil but it will need to cure for a few weeks longer. Also how long are you curing your soap? Make sure you cured the recipe you gave for a minimum of 6 weeks and if you make it with olive oil instead of 20% of your coconut oil that’s going to need more of a 10 week cure. You can buy test strips to test the ph of your soap you should be aiming for a ph as close to 7 as possible 8-9 ph is good. This is especially important for eczema and psoriasis conditions. The longer you cure the better ph you’ll get. This is true for up to 4-6 months. Remember soaping takes patience especially if you’re trying to address skin conditions. Another good replacement for the 20% coconut oil would be sweet almond oil. For all of your oils I would do test swatches on the affected skin. For instance avocado oil is often used to reduce inflammation in psoriasis but sometimes triggers the onset of symptoms.
The coconut oil is definitely contributing to the problem. In its raw form it does a great job soothing eczema, in its Saponified form it becomes a strong surfactant.
Also adding yogurt is a good ingredient to add for lower ph. Consider hot process as well it is easier to accomplish lower ph in hot process.

Also- keep in mind that many people with extremely sensitive skin or eczema cannot use soap daily or often at all. Many of the products marketed for eczema are not soaps but are in fact cleansers. Cleansers are not made with lye and are not actual soap. They are comprised of ingredients sometimes synthetic or often natural which are cleansing by nature of the material. You could look up cleansing bars. I believe dove sensitive is a cleansing bar and not actual soap and that’s what makes it so gentle.
 
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Arimara

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You should consider what the cause of your sons' eczema. If it is allergy based, you may want to nix the the butters for now (if you must use one, I'd actually suggest cocao butter to lend hardness). You would definitely want to drop that coconut oil to about 10% to start. I agree with using goat milk (50/50 method is much easier) in your soaps and, if not opposed, consider lard as well. It might be me but I consider lard to be a touch more gentle than tallow in soap and at 41% (from my suggested changes) you could experiment with both and see how you like it. You can even mix the tallow and the lard together, which makes a good mix as well.
 

kasandrashy

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tallow will up you cleansing number, What preservative you mean? BHT and Citric acid is in lard and it is perfectly save for our skin especially in soap. I have eczema and use that lard in soaps. The key is like OBsidian said low cleansing. low Coconut oil . Some people can not use CO at all then maybe babassu oil.
Also Citric acid would be a good ingredient for ph! Remember skin has an acidic ph and soap by nature is alkaline. Any acids like citric acid, yogurt, acidic milk will help keep ph lower. More alkaline products will raise it. Check the ph of your additives, remember that processing changes the ph. For instance raw goats milk is alkaline but pasteurized powdered goats milk is usually slightly acidic.
 

DeeAnna

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"...Any acids like citric acid, yogurt, acidic milk will help keep ph lower...."

Not really. At least if an acid is used in moderation. Citric acid or any other acidic ingredient will not lower the pH of a properly made soap unless you add an excessive amount of acid which will force the soap to decompose and the pH to drop. In that case, the soap isn't soap anymore.

"...You can buy test strips to test the ph of your soap you should be aiming for a ph as close to 7 as possible 8-9 ph is good...."

The pH of properly made soap varies but is often in the range of 9 to 11. If you force soap to have a pH under 9 by adding acids, you don't have soap any more.

Inexpensive test strips used the way most soaper use them are really, really inaccurate. They will tell you the pH is 2 or 3 units lower than the pH really is. So if you get a pH reading of 8 with your test strips, the real pH is closer to 10 or 11.

***

edit-- I want to add some actual measured numbers to my comments here to make things more concrete.

Let's say I make a pure sodium laurate soap. (Lauric acid is a major fatty acid in coconut oil). The normal pH of this soap is 10.1. If I add enough acid to lower the pH of this pure soap by 2.6 pH units to a pH of 7.5, the soap will decompose into a mixture of 50% fatty acids and 50% soap. In everyday soap lingo, the soap would have a whopping 50% superfat.

A pure sodium palmitate soap has a natural pH of 10.7. (Palmitic acid is one of the main fatty acids in lard, palm, and the butters.) By the time I drop its pH 1.9 units to a pH of 8.8, the soap will have decomposed into 50% fatty acids and 50% soap.

A pure sodium oleate soap has a normal pH of 11.2. (Oleic acid is the main fatty acid in olive oil.) If acid is added to drop the pH 1.3 units to a pH of 9.9, the soap will decompose into that same 50:50 mix of fatty acids and soap.

Since our soaps are a mixture of these (and other) fatty acids, the natural pH of our soaps will vary within the range of 9.5-11.5, depending on which fatty acids predominate. (I often say 9-11, but that's actually a little lower than what's really the case.)

A high coconut oil soap will have a lower pH due to more lauric acid content.
A high lard or palm or olive oil soap will have a higher pH due to more oleic and stearic acid content.​

But no matter what, if you drop the pH of your soap by 1.5 to 2 pH units, you're going to end up with a 50:50 mixture of fatty acids and soap. In other words, you'll have something that really doesn't function as soap. --end edit
 
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kasandrashy

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"...Any acids like citric acid, yogurt, acidic milk will help keep ph lower...."

Not really. At least if an acid is used in moderation. Citric acid or any other acidic ingredient will not lower the pH of a properly made soap unless you add an excessive amount of acid which will force the soap to decompose and the pH to drop. In that case, the soap isn't soap anymore.

"...You can buy test strips to test the ph of your soap you should be aiming for a ph as close to 7 as possible 8-9 ph is good...."

The pH of properly made soap varies but is often in the range of 9 to 11. If you force soap to have a pH under 9 by adding acids, you don't have soap any more.

Inexpensive test strips used the way most soaper use them are really, really inaccurate. They will tell you the pH is 2 or 3 units lower than the pH really is. So if you get a pH reading of 8 with your test strips, the real pH is closer to 10 or 11.

***

edit-- I want to add some actual measured numbers to my comments here to make things more concrete.

Let's say I make a pure sodium laurate soap. (Lauric acid is a major fatty acid in coconut oil). The normal pH of this soap is 10.1. If I add enough acid to lower the pH of this pure soap by 2.6 pH units to a pH of 7.5, the soap will decompose into a mixture of 50% fatty acids and 50% soap. In everyday soap lingo, the soap would have a whopping 50% superfat.

A pure sodium palmitate soap has a natural pH of 10.7. (Palmitic acid is one of the main fatty acids in lard, palm, and the butters.) By the time I drop its pH 1.9 units to a pH of 8.8, the soap will have decomposed into 50% fatty acids and 50% soap.

A pure sodium oleate soap has a normal pH of 11.2. (Oleic acid is the main fatty acid in olive oil.) If acid is added to drop the pH 1.3 units to a pH of 9.9, the soap will decompose into that same 50:50 mix of fatty acids and soap.

Since our soaps are a mixture of these (and other) fatty acids, the natural pH of our soaps will vary within the range of 9.5-11.5, depending on which fatty acids predominate. (I often say 9-11, but that's actually a little lower than what's really the case.)

A high coconut oil soap will have a lower pH due to more lauric acid content.
A high lard or palm or olive oil soap will have a higher pH due to more oleic and stearic acid content.​

But no matter what, if you drop the pH of your soap by 1.5 to 2 pH units, you're going to end up with a 50:50 mixture of fatty acids and soap. In other words, you'll have something that really doesn't function as soap. --end edit
It has been my understanding that soap with a ph 8 and above can stabilize and most soap has a ph of 9-11.
 

DeeAnna

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"...soap with a ph 8 and above can stabilize..."

I don't know what you mean by "can stabilize". Do you mean you can drop the pH to 8 and still have functional soap? Or something else? Either way, please explain.

I tried in my previous post to provide concrete data and put that data in context, rather than talk in vague generalities and expect people to take my word for it so people can really understand this subject better. I'm willing to go into even more detail if need be.

I'm hoping others will make the same effort to explain the science if they feel I've not got it right. I'm not the last word on this subject, so if there is good information to support and explain another point of view, I would appreciate learning more.
 

Dahila

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Acids-and-Alkalis-The-pH-Scale.png
Kasandrashi with all due respect, Have you check ph of soap with ph meter and solution? Paper is good for garbage, it must be ph meter
 

gloopygloop

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I am with DeeAnna on this, I totally get that lowering the pH will render a soap a non soap and I have done this on purpose just to see what it ends up like, you do indeed get a fatty mass which is more akin to a fatty cream which certainly was not soap in my experiment. I was also under the impression rightly or wrongly that pH with in the range that any cosmetic is will not drastically affect the skin as the skin will in fact return to its usual pH rather sharpish after using something such as soap or something on the more acidic range.
 

kasandrashy

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I am with DeeAnna on this, I totally get that lowering the pH will render a soap a non soap and I have done this on purpose just to see what it ends up like, you do indeed get a fatty mass which is more akin to a fatty cream which certainly was not soap in my experiment. I was also under the impression rightly or wrongly that pH with in the range that any cosmetic is will not drastically affect the skin as the skin will in fact return to its usual pH rather sharpish after using something such as soap or something on the more acidic range.
"...soap with a ph 8 and above can stabilize..."

I don't know what you mean by "can stabilize". Do you mean you can drop the pH to 8 and still have functional soap? Or something else? Either way, please explain.

I tried in my previous post to provide concrete data and put that data in context, rather than talk in vague generalities and expect people to take my word for it so people can really understand this subject better. I'm willing to go into even more detail if need be.

I'm hoping others will make the same effort to explain the science if they feel I've not got it right. I'm not the last word on this subject, so if there is good information to support and explain another point of view, I would appreciate learning more.
By stabilize I mean that the end result will in fact be saponified oils as opposed to separated acids, oils and soap. It is true that I use ph strips which after this thread I am reconsidering. I have made soap that reads in the 8 range and this was by adding acidic ingredients after emulsification. Now, I am not a professional but from my standpoint nothing was wrong with my soap, it didn’t seem to be degrading away. It seemed to me that it was like a highly superfatted soap, it sets, has a long cure time and is very soft in water.
I will say that as someone with eczema, chronic hives and rosacea, soap is in fact harsh on my skin. Since I am treated for hives with medication and currently live in a more humid climate I can and do use my soaps on my skin in the shower (but never on my face). I also used to not be able to use my soap when I lived in the northeast where it was dryer and colder and I notice that the lower my ph, the longer the cure time the less my soap bothers dermatitis.
I am not meaning to spread the wrong information if I am then I am sorry.

Side note: most soaps that are commercially made and marketed for eczema are actually cleansers and not soap at all. So there is a chance that OP will not be satisfied with her soap for any dermatitis if the skin is used to commercial products. Cleansers can have much lower ph but I’ve never made one.

Also for OP something I have done in the past when my skin was more inflamed was use a straight oil (usually coconut) on my skin after washing at the end of my shower. Some of the oil will rinse off but the rest sinks in and feels great. Still there is nothing like a really good body cream with hyroulonic acid for dry itchy skin.
 

Arimara

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@kasandrashy My daughter uses Cetaphil bar soaps for her skin. That has done her skin more good than harm, unlike Dove (that was unscented). I agree and encourage OP to consider at if necessary. Natural does not mean better, as how social trends try to make it and Many of those cleansing bars are actually a good deal more gentle than handmade soaps.
 

cmzaha

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@kasandrashy My daughter uses Cetaphil bar soaps for her skin. That has done her skin more good than harm, unlike Dove (that was unscented). I agree and encourage OP to consider at if necessary. Natural does not mean better, as how social trends try to make it and Many of those cleansing bars are actually a good deal more gentle than handmade soaps.
You are very correct. I used Cetaphil for years and may have to go back to it. Handmade soap is not the answer for everyone.
 

Dahila

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You are very correct. I used Cetaphil for years and may have to go back to it. Handmade soap is not the answer for everyone.
I am guilty also of using my syndet bar on my body, Just the skin feels much better, especialy my ankles, I have spots on eczema on them
 

cmzaha

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While I buy very few recipes I was so behind at the holidays and need a fill-in product I purchased this recipe. Ironically I ended up not taking them to market and do not like the shampoo bar formula as a shampoo bar but I Love it as a body bar, and so does my eczema. My eczema in the last year has become pretty severe after almost 20 yrs of very little problems with it. :( https://tinyurl.com/udtjrxo
 

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