Morphing

[Maythorn]

What is it that causes this in fragrance oils?

Milk (all dairy kinds)
Coconut Milk
Gelling
Does salt do it too?
Some clays (I experienced this from French green clay and Rosemary and Lavender essential oils plus buttermilk as one half the liquid. There was no other explanation because the essential oils were from a good supplier and the buttermilk was not expired)

I'm really hesitant to both add dairy milk and gell at this point and don't know what would happen. I wanted to order some scents from Peak's and that was the thing that made me lose out on the last sale. Just didn't know what to order.

Does anyone have experience with any Peak's scents not the tolerating the addition of milk whether coconut or dairy? I want to order Lovespell, Warm Vanilla Sugar, Black Raspberry Vanilla, Tall Grasses, Honeysuckle, White Lily and Amber, Coconut Milk, Almond Pasties, Coconut Lime Verbena, Sunflower, White Tea and Ginger, Black Canyon. I'm concerned about ruining the scent with the wrong recipe plan.

I wonder if gelling the Coconut Milk would make it come out really dark and I think you're only supposed to not gell if you are doing a dairy milk recipe because the milk supplies a sort of heat all in itself maybe. I'm in the dark about it though,plainly.roblem:

 

[Hazel]

I've always assumed the lye and heat is what causes FOs to morph but I don't know for sure.

I can highly recommend Peak's White Tea & Ginger in a non-gelled batch with heavy whipping cream (25% of liquid amount). The scent stayed true and hasn't faded. I made the batch about 2 years ago and I think I used the FO at either .7 or .8 oz ppo. I'd have to check the recipe to make sure which it was but I generally use .8 oz or less in batches.

Peak's Love Spell worked well in a salt batch. This batch is over a year old and as far as I can tell hasn't faded. I can't tell a difference in the scent so if it morphed then it's a minimal alteration and you know how hot salt batches can get. :wink: It smells really good. However, I base the percentage of FO on the combined weight of the oils and salt. For example, the usual amount of FO I would use for a 32 ounce batch would be 1.4 oz if I used .7 oz ppo (approximately 4.5%). Sometimes I don't even use the recommended amount by SoapCalc since I'm often only using a 1 oz bottle from Peak. I've noticed most of their 1 oz bottles actually weigh out anywhere from 1.05 oz up to 1.25 oz. I would total the amount of oils and salt and calculate the FO for the total weight. I generally use 75% salt in a batch so I would calculate the batch size for 18 oz of oils and add 14 oz of salt to equal 32 oz. I don't know if this is the way it should be done. This is just the way I do it and it works out well so I continue to do it this way.

I don't know if coconut milk turns dark when gelled because I've only used it in batches in which I used FOs which have some percentage of vanillin in them.

You can gel milk soaps. I've used heavy whipping cream in a salt bar batch and it turned out great! I was very pleased with how nice it was but I used one of the Sugar Cookie FOs (don't remember which one). So, it was dark, dark brown but I'm sure there would have been some discoloration from gelling the cream. I don't know if the scent morphed or not since it was the only time I used the FO but it did smell good. My sister gave me a bar of GM soap which is made by a lady she knows and this woman always gels her soap. Her GM soaps are tan in color. This is just my opinion but I think for some soapmakers preventing gel is more of an aesthetic issue. The soap stays a lighter, cream color.

You do want to prevent the milk from heating up when you add the lye. Otherwise, it really will change color (milk can become an orangy color) and affect the final color in your soap. From what someone mentioned on the forum, the orangy coloration was from the lye heating up the sugar in the milk. It can also scorch (brown color) and I've read it can possibly curdle. I'm not totally positive about curdling because I can't verify this by personal experience. I've only used buttermilk, half & half and light or heavy whipping creams and I've made . I also mix the lye in water and add the rest of the liquid as milk. Buttermilk will discolor to tan in gelled batches but I don't care because I actually like the color. Since buttermilk discolors, I'm sure the half & half and creams would also discolor in gelled batches.

Another reason people don't like to gel milk soaps is because of the chance of overheating from the combination of the milk and lye. Overheating can run the gamut of discoloration to cracking of the loaf to a soap volcano. You'd want to keep an eye on it to make sure the batch isn't overheating. FOs can cause to overheating, too. The size of the batch will also have some effect with overheating. Larger sized batches will heat up more and retain heat longer.

As for clays, I don't know if they would affect fragrance or not. I've only used clay in small amounts for slip and a little color. I haven't noticed scent issues in any batches in which I've used clay but it's possible I wouldn't have noticed unless it was an extreme difference.

I don't think you'd have much to worry about if you're using good quality FOs. BTW, I think grapefruit in milk soaps smell nasty but this is just my opinion.

HTH

eta: I've never used Black Canyon in milk soaps but I want to mention it's really strong. I used it at .5 oz ppo in HP and thought that was too strong!

 

[Maythorn]

Thanks Hazel. I appreciate all your information and your mentioning those scents I'm interested in. I think my two failed salt batches never got the heat they're supposed to. Probably because they were only 8 oz batches poured into individual cavity molds and the weather was freezing both times. I bet that's why they were crumbly and looked all frosty. Especially the one I didn't add milk to. It must have gotten zero heat.

I'm going to study the Scent Review Forum Board and see if there is some mention of milk used in recipes. Of course I think many "milky" scents would be made with milk but aren't necessarily.

If I can get another order together I'll probably just go with 1 oz of any scent considering that if it doesn't work out in an 8 oz small batch I can try it over again a different way and that would suffice. Twice suggests that the scent is impossible and I've run across that with a cotton type scent I ordered (not from Peak's). So disappointing and I don't like to waste oils and lye.

The reason I asked about salts was because I had heard they can morph bath salts that smell good at first and then later on smell weird. I guess with that you'd make a very small amount and let it age and then it would indicate if all was okay or not.

I don't like grapefruit scents either unless one a very sweet pink grapefruit scent and I don't if any are. Oregon Trails Love Spell smells graprefruity but is not so bad with the other scents involved. Still I wasn't in love with it but if someone likes grapefruit they might reallly go for it.

 

[Hazel]

Now that I read what I wrote above, I probably told you a lot of what you already knew so not too helpful of me.

I attempted to try Dead Sea salts in a bath fizzie and the DDS did morph the scent as compared to the ones I made with sea salt. I may be wrong but perhaps it's the mineral content of the salt that could affect the fragrance. (Also, the DDS caused the oil to weep from the bomb and the surface became pitted. Messy.)

I don't know that making your salt bars in individual molds is the problem. I've made salt bars in cavity molds and they turned out fine. However, I did wrap them in a towel to help keep the heat. I posted pics of them awhile back so you may have seen them. It was the Cranberry Citrus (Peak - love this scent!) which I made in ovals and cubes.

On the other hand, small batches are harder to weigh since you have to make sure your scales are really accurate. A slight variance in a larger batch isn't going to be too bad. A slight variance in a small batch could really mess up a batch. You said you made 8 oz which is really a small batch. I know you don't want to waste oils but have you considered making a slightly larger batch.

How crumbly were the bars? Salt bars can be a bit crumbly anyway. Could the frosting you described actually have been ash?

 

[Maythorn]

Cranberry Citrus sounds very fresh and bright. I thought I saw a Cranberry Marmalade and several Strawberry scents too.

The first batch was crumbly looking but had quite a bit of water and I think the ash and the cold were what made it not come out altogether right. No milk just water and it smells true. I'm using the bars and they're not bad if you don't mind imperfect.

The second batch, different scent, I reduced the water for and added some goats milk. The scent went sideways and smelled really funny and I think it is not a milk-compatible scent. I have an oz and a half left of it though and so I really want to try and make something with it. The bars were not great. I added a lot less salt and one bar broke in half at unmolding. So too little water this time.

I just felt like salt bars won't work for me for some darned reason. I'll try keeping the batch warm though next time. Or maybe just add a couple of teaspoons per pd oils and then I can still say sea salt was added. It won't be as fun and unique though as a regular salt bar.

 

[Hazel]

What is the recipe you're using and how much salt are you adding? Salt batches really aren't difficult other than cutting them in time before they harden. This is why I prefer cavity molds so I don't have to worry about cutting.

What scent did you use with the goat milk?

Cranberry Citrus is a lovely scent. It's hard to describe but it is nicely balanced between tart and sweet. It is a fresh, lighter scent which I think would be nice year round. It behaved very well and didn't discolor. On Peak's site, it stated it could be used as a spa scent. I agree it might work well in a spa line.

I've used the Cranberry Apple Marmalade. It smells good but it's more of a fall/harvest type scent, IMO. It also riced and discolored. I didn't mind the discoloration and I liked the scent but I decided I didn't like it enough to deal with ricing. On the other hand, my sister really likes the scent so I may buy it again if she wants soap scented with it. But I would definitely HP it.

 

[Scentapy]

I don't know if coconut milk turns dark when gelled because I've only used it in batches in which I used FOs which have some percentage of vanillin in them.

No, it doesn't. My favorite water replacement is coconut milk. I gel almost all my soaps and I have not had a problem with coconut milk turning dark. Actually I have a very nice cream colored coconut milk soap.

The only real milk soaps I make are coconut. Last weekend I decided to try buttermilk and my soaps is crumbly. Any ideas why? I used goats milk once and got the same result. It makes me hesitate to use it again.

 

[Maythorn]

The recipe is on Youtube how to make salt bars with salt and they're black and white because the instructor used white clay in one half and charcoal in the other. I couldn't get that fancy so I just added the recommended amount of salt. 12.8 coco, 2.4 olive, .8 shea butter, 6.1 water, 2.5 lye, 12 oz salt. It seemed like a good recipe and doesn't even add total salt to oils. I just don't know what happened, Hazel.

Ricing I had happen one time and I never got over it.

As for crumbly goat milk and buttermilk soaps Scentapy: it sounds like you and I had the same results, opposite ways. Did you add enough milk, too much lye, and so on are the usual questions and maybe want to share the recipe? But if you checked it all out on Soapcalc or somewhere like that, I would be baffled. I have the sinking feeling that soap is baffling to me and I can't step outside of doing the goats milk and buttermilk ones that have worked. By the way I don't gell the milk soaps in a loaf. I've been only if the soap is going that way and to try and stop it would result in partial gell.

 

[Scentapy]

As for crumbly goat milk and buttermilk soaps Scentapy: it sounds like you and I had the same results, opposite ways. Did you add enough milk, too much lye, and so on are the usual questions and maybe want to share the recipe? But if you checked it all out on Soapcalc or somewhere like that, I would be baffled. I have the sinking feeling that soap is baffling to me and I can't step outside of doing the goats milk and buttermilk ones that have worked. By the way I don't gell the milk soaps in a loaf. I've been only if the soap is going that way and to try and stop it would result in partial gell.

Yes... I run every recipe through soap calc. and they would not have been lye heavy. They are not overly crumbly... just seem really dry and the bottom of the soap crumbles a bit when I cut them. My coconut milk is the complete opposite. It is simply creamy and wonderful. I guess I am going to just stick with that.

 

[Hazel]

Did you zap test the dry, crumbly part? Dry and crumbly is usually a sign of too much lye.



@ Maythorn - I don't know why you're having problems because the recipe looks fine. I'd find it a bit drying and would use a higher SF but this is just personal preference.

Do you have the link to the video? I'd like to watch it to check exactly what this person says about making a salt bar batch.

 

[Maythorn]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SVaK5sm0jmc[/ame] This is the one.

 

[melstan775]

ETA: NVM, I see this is the second page of the thread, I thought it was a lone post. Stupid computers...

 

[Delicato7]

No, it doesn't. My favorite water replacement is coconut milk. I gel almost all my soaps and I have not had a problem with coconut milk turning dark. Actually I have a very nice cream colored coconut milk soap.

The only real milk soaps I make are coconut. Last weekend I decided to try buttermilk and my soaps is crumbly. Any ideas why? I used goats milk once and got the same result. It makes me hesitate to use it again.

Does coconut milk ever morph scents?

 

[DeeAnna]

This thread is 5 years old and the posters are no longer active. The way this forum works for the most part is that people are better off asking a question in a new thread rather than reviving an old one. Make your thread title as descriptive as possible so people will be more likely to read your thread and post useful responses.

 

[Delicato7]

Honestly, I don't think that would help, either.