more shampoo bar questions

[Bex1982]

That's good. So it gets better as it goes on? Maybe I wont need conditioner in a few weeks.
I had also added bergamot essential oil, I read something about it being good for your scalp. It did mask the vinegar smell a bit. I can't smell any of it now, not even the essential oil. My hair is still a little fluffy/frizzy but way less than usual. I just put a dab of argon oil hair cream and it fixed it.

 

[Obsidian]

When my hair is excessively frizzy, I use a dab of shea body butter on the ends.

 

[CanaDawn]

That's good. So it gets better as it goes on? Maybe I wont need conditioner in a few weeks.
I had also added bergamot essential oil, I read something about it being good for your scalp. It did mask the vinegar smell a bit. I can't smell any of it now, not even the essential oil. My hair is still a little fluffy/frizzy but way less than usual. I just put a dab of argon oil hair cream and it fixed it.

It might get better, I can really only speak from my own experience. I never use conditioner anymore, and have no problem combing through, and my hair feels completely different now (sort of...plastic, in a good way. Very smooth and "hard" somehow)

See how it goes over a week, now that it's working. There's a hair forum called the Long Hair Community (LHC) that has heaps of hair information, if you wanted to search there for more ideas. between the soap experts and the hair pros you'd be sure to find something that worked.

 

[eucalypta]

I've put off making my own because all of the ones I've tried have made my hair dry and dull. However, now I know to use an acid rinse after.
Ive been doing co-washing but it often leaves my hair limp, mine is on the fine side and curly.

The main reasons not to make and use CP shampoo bars (or liquid soap), is that it leaves "soap scum" in your hair, that is not easliy rinsed out, and that you can't put in the necessary goodies, because they suffer from, or won't survive, the lye.
The SF should do the trick according to those in favor of CP shampoo, but the major part of it will be rinsed off.
(Persons whomight like the CP soap attack on their hair, are men - or people with short hair in general - because it will feel like their hair is firmer/thicker.)

So I decided to make syndet shampoo bars, based on mild surfactants and with the possibiity of adding all the goodies I want (like panthenol, burdock root, horse tail, you name it).
I'm happy, customers are happy.

I love "natural" products and ingredients, but I think we could put to use the best of two worlds.
We've got the technology.

You might want to visit Swiftcraftymonkey's blog; she's the shampoo guru!

 

[CanaDawn]

eh. soap "scum" is dealt with via the acid rinse as is the "soap attack" (assuming you mean the alkali affect on the hair). My hair is nearly to my waist, and I'm not a man, so there goes that theory. My hair is better now with soap and vinegar than it has been since I was a child, it has stopped falling out in handfuls (which it did no matter how mild the shampoo I tried), and it shines like crazy. If I felt any "goodies" were "necessary" I would add them to a rinse, where they wouldn't get washed off like a soap or shampoo. I've tried very hard to stick to "my experience is" in this thread, but I must say that mine has been nothing like the unpleasantness you suggest, and the quoted post is clear that there is no rinse being used that would in all probability reduce or remove any drying or dulling effects.

 

[Bex1982]

The first try was with a burts bees shampoo bar and no acid rinse. It went ok for a few washes. But eventually dried and dulled my hair.
I have used a syndet bar and I liked it but I'd rather get away from the synthetics if possible, well as many as I can get away from, I know I still use them.
I really need something to combat hair falling out, I already have hypothyroidism which causes hair loss and I can tell right away if something will cause my hair to fall out bc it comes out in bunches. I didn’t have that with the soap so id really love if I could get it to work.
I'll try the week and see. If my hair gets weird I'll just have to go back to my other shamp or co-washing.

 

[DeliaRana]

I started using shampoo bars about 8 months ago. They are what got me interested in soap making. The best advice I can give is start with one recipe and make a 1 lb batch. Use it for a couple weeks to a month and see how your hair reacts. Then change the recipe to suit the needs of your hair. I went through several versions of a recipe before I found one I like. I now use my shampoo bars exclusively, with no conditioner or vinegar rinse. If my hair starts to feel dry or frizzy(mostly from blow drying) I use a couple drops of camellia seed oil. Don't give up, you may just have to tweak a recipe to suit your needs.

 

[DawninWA]

I made some 100% olive oil soap and use that for my hair (my scalp hates coconut). I used vinegar or ascorbic acid rinses for the first few weeks, but I missed conditioner. So I tried conditioner as a rinse, works perfectly for me. I use a tresemme silicone free conditioner. I dilute about a tbsp or 2 in a cup of water (it's really thick conditioner, and lasts forever this way).

I liquify the soap (1 4oz bar to about 6 cups water - not all soaps liquefy well), it works better for me that way.

 

[eucalypta]

Excessive hairloss is a medical condition; often hormonal - like as after giving birth.
Stress also could be a factor as well as general health.
You can't prevent nor cure hairloss using shampoos.

Anyhow, everyone has his preferences; I respect that.

 

[Susie]

It is true that you can't fix hair loss with a shampoo. However, you can address hair breakage with shampoo, rinse, conditioner, other hair products, and how you choose to style your hair. Most people can't differentiate between those two. They see more hair in their brush or on their hands and/or clothing, and they are losing hair. So, it simply semantics.

While I absolutely support everyone's right to an opinion, using pejorative language is not conducive to helping people learn, in my most humble opinion.

 

[FGOriold]

Just like with every other type of hair care or skin care product, what works for one does not always work for another. There is a lot of talk about the higher pH of shampoo bars or liquid shampoo made with lye and it's negative effects on hair in lifting the cuticle - but that is to be weighed with how a detergent based product can also affect the hair due to the oftentimes harsh ingredients - even if is is pH balanced (balanced to what too?). You are also using water (average pH of 7) to mix with any hair or skin cleanser you use and to rinse out said cleansers and I have yet to get a definitive answer from chemists in the field as to how the water pH affects the overall product pH when said product is being used as directed.

The science says that your acid mantle has a specific pH in the acidic range and we should not be using high pH products on it, but they also cannot dispute the facts that many peoples skin benefits from using a quality cold process soap - skin that may have suffered greatly from using even the mildest (and pH balanced) commercial cleansers. I personally could never go back to commercial skin cleansers after seeing and feeling the difference on my own skin. Maybe the biggest problem and the most concern is with a high pH product that is left on the skin or hair and is not a rinse off product.

As for shampoo bars, all I can say is I have been using them for 2 years and I get lots of compliments on my hair and every time I go in for hair services (color, cut) I ask my hairdresser how my hair looks and how the color is holding up from her perspective - and it is all good. As for my business, I make about 8 different shampoo bars and they are my best sellers. Hair care products outsell any other product that I offer and I oftentimes cannot keep up with the demand and am constantly making batch after batch of shampoo bars and I still run out. I have repeat customers who have been buying them for several years too.

So, as with every thing in life - do what works for you and don't assume what does not work for you based on your experience or research does not work for anyone else.

 

[CanaDawn]

Excessive hairloss is a medical condition; often hormonal - like as after giving birth.
Stress also could be a factor as well as general health.
You can't prevent nor cure hairloss using shampoos.

Anyhow, everyone has his preferences; I respect that.

I definitely stopped hair loss by switching to soap. I have a hormonal condition, but the difference happened immediately on changing to soap. It was not hair breakage, as the root of the hair was visible on the lost hair. I now lose a normal amount of hair (a small number in my comb and not gobs and handfuls throughout the day, to the point that I fear cooking for others, and can scrape a clump off my clothing at any time). The ONLY change was shampoo to soap and vinegar. And it was immediate and sustained.

 

[CanaDawn]

You are also using water (average pH of 7) to mix with any hair or skin cleanser you use and to rinse out said cleansers and I have yet to get a definitive answer from chemists in the field as to how the water pH affects the overall product pH when said product is being used as directed.

Really? Because I'm sure most could talk about the presence or absence of buffering components in the water or product, etc and how that may affect a product, as well as the mineral salt content and its reactivity. I'm surprised no one you have spoken to has been able to address the question. There's not a "definitive" single answer, but there are lots of things that could be explained and considered. Buffers are weird chemistry though, for sure.

The science says that your acid mantle has a specific pH in the acidic range and we should not be using high pH products on it, but they also cannot dispute the facts that many peoples skin benefits from using a quality cold process soap - skin that may have suffered greatly from using even the mildest (and pH balanced) commercial cleansers. I personally could never go back to commercial skin cleansers after seeing and feeling the difference on my own skin. Maybe the biggest problem and the most concern is with a high pH product that is left on the skin or hair and is not a rinse off product.

I think you hit the nail on the head re leaving ON a high pH product, vs rinsing and neutralising (because there IS an effect of a high pH, which should be considered in troubleshooting a routine). Your skin also works as its own buffering system, so it can tolerate a range of pH and return to normal balance, although it obviously has its limitations for extremes.

I agree with most of what you wrote in this post, and certainly have found my experience lines up with yours, but I think much of the chemistry can be explained by widening the view to the whole system being used (and accepting there is individual variations within a range of normal).

 

[Bex1982]

I definitely stopped hair loss by switching to soap. I have a hormonal condition, but the difference happened immediately on changing to soap. It was not hair breakage, as the root of the hair was visible on the lost hair. I now lose a normal amount of hair (a small number in my comb and not gobs and handfuls throughout the day, to the point that I fear cooking for others, and can scrape a clump off my clothing at any time). The ONLY change was shampoo to soap and vinegar. And it was immediate and sustained.

I can relate. I need a product because I have hypothyroidism. And yes, just tons of hair falls out. When I used the soap these 3 times there was way less. Like you, I can see the roots attached to the hairs in the brush also. When I use Organix brand my hair falls out like crazy, it also strips my color so there must be something harsh in there!! And it's considered a good sulfate free poo. So I can't blame it on sulfates. When I use the brand Shea Moisture my hair doesn't fall out as much but it leaves my hair feeling weird, frizzy I guess.
I think my hair is just barely hanging on by the roots and anything it doesn't like will just cause it to fall out. Not strongly rooted.
I'm also unsure of the ph, but it seems that if it's neutralized fairy fast there wouldn’t be much to worry about.

 

[CanaDawn]

I'm also unsure of the ph, but it seems that if it's neutralized fairy fast there wouldn’t be much to worry about.

This is my understanding, and my experience. Honestly my hair has doubled in thickness - as in the number of hairs at full length, not the size of the hair shaft, although that has improved as well. I french braided it down the back today and for the first time in many many years it's a full braid starting high on my head, not a few feeble crosses before it tapers off to a ratty braid.

If your soap is properly made in a normal way, with the right level of lye, and you use a mild diluted acid rinse, I would expect you find a change for the better. Whether or not a special formulation for hair is required is something I couldn't speak to from experience, but something I doubt is truly "necessary". YMMV.

 

[kmarvel]

Magic, I have the same concerns. why would I use a shampoo bar of soap on my hair only to rinse it with some type of vinegar or citric acid base stuff?? I would like to start making shampoo bars but the rinse part truly turns me off. Is there a poo bar recipe out there that you DON'T have to use a rinse after??
Kathie

 

[seven]

^^^
Put some dl panthenol perhaps? Soapqueen has a recipe for a poo bar with dlp.


Sent from my iPhone using Soap Making

 

[Dahila]

I definitely stopped hair loss by switching to soap. I have a hormonal condition, but the difference happened immediately on changing to soap. It was not hair breakage, as the root of the hair was visible on the lost hair. I now lose a normal amount of hair (a small number in my comb and not gobs and handfuls throughout the day, to the point that I fear cooking for others, and can scrape a clump off my clothing at any time). The ONLY change was shampoo to soap and vinegar. And it was immediate and sustained.

Here the same. I was losing my hair and my confidence too. Maybe 3 washes with Genny or rather Linda shampoo bar it stopped.
My hair is very fine, no problem after washing with shampoo bar, easy to manage and color is keeping pretty good.
I will consider Obsidian suggestion and add tiny bit of CO..to the next one. My shampoo bar had not gelled, it was my second soap and I was terrified of screwing it up. I made it on very low temps like 35 Celsius. The bar was very soft, but right now after 4 or 5 months it is hard and bubbles are pretty good.
I am allergic to most of commercial products, have always been. Making my own is a blessing, and fun
BTW thanks to everyone for the advice

 

[CanaDawn]

Magic, I have the same concerns. why would I use a shampoo bar of soap on my hair only to rinse it with some type of vinegar or citric acid base stuff?? I would like to start making shampoo bars but the rinse part truly turns me off. Is there a poo bar recipe out there that you DON'T have to use a rinse after??
Kathie

Because of the chemistry of putting an alkali on your hair and scalp, which should be at least neutral, if not slightly acidic.

You rinse ALL soaps and shampoos, don't you? And then on your hair use conditioner? Same same. Why do you object to using a rinse?

You are not going to make an acidic soap.
If you find a bar that *your* hair likes, or if your water reacts with the soap, you may not have to rinse with a neutralising rinse, but all soap is alkali, and your hair is not designed to be alkali. It's just not.

 

[CanaDawn]

I also thought of something else that might be a factor: hair length.

Hair is dead. It can't buffer or adjust itself, it is reliant on what is put on it (oil from scalp, hair products, etc) to stay intact and "healthy".

Shorter hair is a) cut more often, so any damage is removed, and b) close enough to the scalp to benefit more from the skin's built-in buffering and protection and oils. After about ear length, that benefit is pretty much lost, and care and handling become more crucial to its appearance and strength.

Soap is for cleaning. It's not a leave-on product, so rinsing it off is normal. If you need to adjust the performance (hair hard to comb, or dull, etc), you are most likely in need of an acidic follow up. Call it conditioner, if that helps.

The talk about soap scum etc made me think about this, in relation to hair. We don't talk about soap scum on skin, or object to rinsing, but we want hair to behave differently, so we have to treat it differently, and consider that it cannot adjust its chemistry itself like skin can. Hair and skin have tolerances to pH that are best kept within a certain range, so with soap (always alkaline) for hair, we have to neutralise, and for skin, we need to provide enough SF or reduce the cleansing enough to let the skin adjust the pH in time to avoid damage.