Modifying a shaving soap recipe

[Stacie]

I have this shaving soap I've made that I want to modify to have a bigger, more stable lather. Currently it reads:
9.9 oz rice bran oil
6.6 oz coconut oil
6.6 oz pko
5 oz castor oil
3.3 oz avocado bitter
1.7 oz cocoa butter
4.4 oz lye
10.9 oz water

So...I'm thinking that I need more coconut oil for the lather. I don't want to increase the total batch size since this recipe completely maxes out the mold I'm using. I could do with a smaller batch, really. So maybe if I just reduce the rice bran oil, that would make the coconut oil ratio higher and that would do it? Obviously lye with the. Have to be recalculated. Any thoughts are appreciated.

 

[Bex1982]

I dont do good without percentages, lazy that way. It looks like you have enough oils that lather well though. Looking there personally I would say you have a little too much rice bran. I don't know how that oil behaves because I always use olive and have never used ricebran in soaps.

 

[Stacie]

Since it's for a men's straight razor shaving soap, it needs a super duper serious lather. My understanding is that rice bran and oo act nearly identically as far as what characteristics they contribute. I'm half considering just nixing the rice bran altogether....

 

[Dorymae]

Try adding some bentonite clay for a good slip in any shaving soap.

 

[KristaY]

In my shaving soap CO is at 30%. So if you reduce the RBO to 5 oz, that will be 17% instead of your current 30%. Then increase CO to 8 oz, making it 27% instead of 20%, it should help with lather. Soap Cal puts this recipe at 48 for bubbly and 31 for creamy so it should do what you want. Plus it took the volume down a tiny bit. Also, the bentonite clay will create a nice slip. I add 3 tsp to my 32 oz recipe. Good luck with it!

 

[Stacie]

Hooray for definitive direction! Can't wait to see how it turns out. Thanks, ladies! Now....to replace the dead stick blender....

 

[KristaY]

Hooray for definitive direction! Can't wait to see how it turns out. Thanks, ladies! Now....to replace the dead stick blender....

Dead stick blender??? Total bummer. I think I'd rather do without my car than my SB, lol. Every time I go into a Goodwill store I look for one just to have on hand as a back up. No luck yet..... Good luck, Stacie!

 

[Stacie]

I hear they sometimes have them at thrift stores. Not sure I have the patience to drive all over town checking though.

 

[IrishLass]

Like Bex, I work better in %'s, too, so I took the liberty of typing it into SoapCalc, which is akin to me putting on soaping bifocals or something :

29.909% Rice Bran Oil
19.940% Coconut Oil
19.940% PKO
15.106% Castor Oil
9.970% Avocado Butter
5.136% Cocoa Butter

Ah, that's better. Now I can 'see' your recipe. Wow- you have almost 40% bubbly oils from the coconut and PKO. Those 2 will give you big, fluffy-type bubbles, but unfortunately, they are not very long on stability, mildness and/or cushion, which are some of the qualities that wet shavers really prize (at least the few that I 've had the pleasure of talking to, one of whom is my hubby).

I make a shaving soap for my hubby that he loves. It's the type that one puts in a mug and uses a shaving brush with which to lather it up. Anyway, it makes beautifully voluminous, foamy, shaving-cream-from-a-can-type lather that lasts for at least 15 to 20 minutes without deflating, and the reason I make mention of that is because my formula contains a sum total of only 10% of the fluffy/bubbly-type oils like coconut and PKO. I found I really didn't need a whole lot of them- just enough for the friction action of the shaving brush to be able get the lather frothing up until the creamier stable lather from the other oils/fats in my formula could kick in and take over.

To me (or, rather to my hubby) the other oils/fats are more important than the coconut and PKO because it is the other ones that provide stability, as well as mildness (to leave the skin feeling nice after shaving) and cushion (to prevent nicks and cuts). It tickles me pink that since using my shave soap, my hubby no longer gets any nicks or cuts, and his face doesn't feel tight or dried out. He's pretty happy about it, too.

Here are some shaving soap threads to help give you some ideas on how to formulate for a good shaving soap. I know that Lindy here is famous for her shave soaps. One of the threads below contains some of her advice:


http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=17065&highlight=stearic+shaving

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=30155&highlight=stearic+shaving&page=2

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=28681&highlight=stearic+shaving

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=29918&highlight=stearic+shaving

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=28373&highlight=stearic+shaving


HTH!
IrishLass

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Great points from the wee Lass on this one - not forgetting that the CO (and I think also PKO) can be drying in a soap. Really not what one wants when shaving................

Lots to read in this particular thread, but for anyone even thinking about making a shaving soap, it is a must read. Songwind's recipe and the notes on it in this thread have gone on to help a lot of people out. I'll be spending a lot of time here when I come to look at making a shaving soap.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=34264&highlight=songwind+shaving

 

[DeeAnna]

I have to say the recipe reads more like a lovely bath soap to me. High on cleansing type soaps, high on conditioning type soaps, and low on the soaps that contribute to shaving-soap lather. The only fat that is directly contributing to a stable dense cushiony lather is the cocoa butter.

A decent shave soap recipe needs more stearic and palmitic acid in it -- that means more tallow, lard, palm, and possibly the direct addition of stearic acid. I second The Gent's and Irish Lass' suggestions about doing a bit more homework.

 

[Stacie]

Thank you so much for all the direction. I'll definitely just scrap this recipe and and pull things from the mentioned threads to formulate a new one. And this batch is definitely just relegated to the bath. Already gave one to the stepson when last I saw him. May he will be a little less ripe when next I see him.

 

[Stacie]

Efficacious Gentleman, that thread was amazing! Thank you. I'm off to try that legendary recipe now. Handy that I don't need my recently-deceased stick blender for it. Now to figure out what weights will fit in my baby crock pot...

 

[DeeAnna]

Although I do like the idea of including a dab of avocado in a shave soap. Hmmmm.......

 

[IrishLass]

Great points from the wee Lass on this one - not forgetting that the CO (and I think also PKO) can be drying in a soap. Really not what one wants when shaving................

Lots to read in this particular thread, but for anyone even thinking about making a shaving soap, it is a must read. Songwind's recipe and the notes on it in this thread have gone on to help a lot of people out. I'll be spending a lot of time here when I come to look at making a shaving soap.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=34264&highlight=songwind+shaving

Oh my goodness! What an awesome thread! Thank you for posting that, Efficacious Gentleman! I'm only as far along as page 7 so far, but somebody, please hold me back- I think I feel an experiment coming on! lol

Although I worked very hard on my shaving formula to get it to where it is and DH really loves it, I just can't resist trying my hand at making a small batch of Songwind's recipe for hubby to compare, especially since I already have all the required ingredients on hand.

And, DeeAnna- I just thought I'd let you know that it was your very helpful and informative post #52 on page 6 describing your step-by-step procedure that pushed me over the edge. Temptress! lol


IrishLass

 

[AnnaO]

I'd just like to say that I'm truly grateful for this thread and the links to other threads that have been posted.
I've been researching recipes for a shaving soap for my OH for some time - I need a low CO formulation - and now I'm off to play with SoapCalc!
Thanks all

 

[IrishLass]

Well, I just got done reading Songwind's most excellent long shaving soap thread, and instead of one experiment, I now think that I shall be trying 2 experiments, lol:

1) Making Songwind's soft Italian-type recipe with a tweak here and there (I want to sub some tallow and butters in for the stearic, and maybe I'll add some lanolin, too)

and

2) Experimenting with my own tried and true hard puck-type recipe by just tweaking the lye a bit, i.e., instead of using 100% NaOH, I will use 90% NaOH and 10% KOH - just to see if it cuts off any of the initial frothing-up time so hubby don't have to work as hard at first. Not that he has to use a lot of elbow grease, mind you (at least not in comparison to my earlier attempts, lol), but every little bit helps. I may even go as high 20% on the KOH, but we'll see what 10% does at first. I don't want things getting too soft.


IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

Irish Lass - I would truly like to hear your DH's opinions, if and when.

I just got done testing two shave soaps today (just at the sink -- not shaving). One was Songwind's and the other was one of my own. Songwind's recipe scores at 32% bubbly, 57% creamy. My soap is 17% bubbly, 58% creamy. They both have about 28% stearic content. Both have thick lather with what I think is decent cushion at the outset. What I found out from experimenting a bit is the dense lather in my recipe started to become less cushiony when I added a bit too much water, but the cushion of Songwind's recipe stayed pretty good. I rebuilt the lather for my soap and tested both for longevity. After 15 minutes, both still had a nice ball of lather with good cushion. I also noted that my recipe did not lather as well as Songwind's right after making. Mine required more water and more effort, but the lathering ability has improved with time.

You (Irish Lass) wrote in one of your posts that you had been pretty satisfied with a recipe that scored 28 bubbly and 52 creamy -- it didn't need a huge amount of water to lather up, but protected your hubby's skin well. My recollection of your explanation was when your recipe was higher in the creamy score, it was harder to lather without extra work and time.

I think there might be a rough rule of thumb emerging from this experience, at least for me -- look for a mid to upper 20 percents for bubbly and a low to mid 50 percents for creamy. Roughly a 1:2 ratio.

****

On a related topic, I am not sure I am interpreting a point correctly about stearic acid in shave soaps....

Lindy has written that one needs at least 40% stearic acid content for a good shave soap. I don't doubt her advice works for her. You have written that you have a good recipe for shave soap that is about 20% stearic acid or thereabouts. I don't doubt your advice is working for you. You two have gently agreed to disagree on the matter, but I'm still puzzling on this and it seems like such an important point to be clear about....

If I look at the analysis of commercially-sold stearic acid, I see the product is not actually 100% stearic acid as one would think. It actually is more like about 50% stearic and 50% palmitic. So if I wanted to prepare a shave soap that is truly 40% stearic acid, as pure stearic acid, the recipe would have to be almost all commercial stearic to get the actual stearic analysis up to 40%. Trying to meet a 40% actual stearic content disqualifies all of the fats traditionally used in shave soaps, including tallow (23% stearic). Even Songwind's recipe, which calls for a whopping 52% commercial stearic, has only 29% actual stearic acid, and it gets decent reviews by the straight-razor crowd.

Now that I realize how much commercial stearic would be required to make a soap with 40% actual stearic, I wonder if the difference between you and Lindy is more one of interpretation. Could it be that Lindy talking about the amount of commercial "stearic", and you are talking about the amount of actual stearic? You are both thoughtful, competent soapers, and it is unusual there is such an apparent divergence of opinion on this point.

 

[cmzaha]

I am working on one now that I used butters high in stearic and some all veggie commerical steaic. Soap Calc comes up with 30 for stearic, 29 bubbly, 50 condition, 61 creamy, 70% aOH, 30% KOH. Oils used not in order....Avo, Castor, Coconut, Tallow, Stearic, Shea, and Kokum. I have a similiar recipe I am almost happy but not quite what I want

 

[eucalypta]

I saw and read the linked post; here is what I think one should consider when formulating a shaving soap.

What is it that you want from it?
- stable condensed lather (lasting some 20 minutes)
- hardly any cleaning; you just want to moisten the hairs, so that the rasor can get a hold of them.
- slip
- conditioning

So what do we need ?
- oils that provide a creamy lather (Castor, Stearic Acid)
- low % of coconut oil (or Babassu, Palm kernel), so that the "cleansing" in SOapCalc will be <10
- oils that are conditioning (Stearic Acid, Castor, Olive oil, Peach Kernel, whatever)
- probably some clay or silk

Now go and play with the SoapCalc....

So you might end up with someting like:

10% Castor
6 Coconut
6 Palm
50 Olive Oil
28 Stearic Acid
Some tussah silk dissolved in the lye water, 1tsp bentonite clay ppo.
Fragrance at 5%/weight of oils - EO's or FO's, your choice.

Shaving soap is slightly harder to make than normal CP soap!
Problems you'll meet during/after the process:

1. Stearic Acid is a pita to work with.
To avoid major soap-on-a-stick problems, it is best to add the melted SA after you mix the lye with the remaining oils.
Still work fast.

2. Bentonite - or any other clay - absorbs a lot of water.
If you add the dry clay after trace, or mix it in with the oils, it starts to absorb water,thus fastening trace. You don't want that!
Better to soak the clay in at least equal part of water the night before the soaping.

If you find the batch still to hard to work with, add heat (microwave or HP)

3. The soap might turn out to be rock hard, which makes it difficult to start the lather.
So here is a solution to that:

Most shaving soaps use both NaOH and KOH to make the lye.
Dissolve both hydroxides in the water at the same time; stir well.
The ratio NaOH/KOH may vary to your preferences; around 40/60
is a nice place to start your experiments.

The lather test
Place the soap in a cup and pour in a some water; moisten the shaving brush and work up the lather.
Place a dollop of lather onto the tiles above the sink or in your shower.
After 20 minutes the dollop should still be there, (hardly) unchanged.
You're successful.

Then the saving sensation: try the soap and think of what you might like to change.

NB Feel free to use other oils. I love emu and tallow. This is just a basic recipe.

HTH