Mixing Leucidal & Aspen BE & Elderberry Extract

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walkinwounded

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Is there any point? My understanding is that each, on their own, are not very strong perservatives, only giving a shorter shelf life in contrast to Germal Plus, anyone use a combitnation of natural perservatives? is my idea a good one, from what i can tell, they will not interact with each other. But will they offer a broader pertection or will one do the same.

I am using germal plus right now which works great, but i would like to try somethin g healthier.

I am not a fan of Natapres or Neodefend or Geogaurd.

Any ideas or opinions???
 

paillo

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I too am interested in using a combo of natural preservatives to achieve a truly broad-spectrum result. Curious as to why you're not a fan of Neodefend or Geoguard? Looked to me like Natapres doesn't offer much beyond the latter two and is more expensive. I've used Leuicidal with good results, but only for give-away products in very small containers that got used up quickly, so I can't attest to shelf life.

Edensong, are you reading? You're the most knowledgeable person I know in this area of expertise.
 

walkinwounded

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Swiftcraftmonkey blog site has some very interesting info on natapres, and it makes good sense what she has seen as some confusing flaws, and like you said, it is more expensive, but seems like your paying for the glycerin its desolved in?????

Geogaurd seems like it would work, but I have read several reports from people who used it and had severe PH drift days and even weeks after the lotion was made, which means your lotion could destabalize at any time. Also it has Benzyl Alcohol in it, and I have read many evidence based reviews on it being toxic even though it is used in all kinds of stuff, but that doesn't change the fact that its toxic to life.

Neodefend has Sodium Benzoate in it which is used in food, but studies shows that it can react with Vitamin C I believe to create a carcinogenic
chemical or compound or something or another,

What I would like to see is a preservative made with Gluconolactone like in Neodefend, Aspen bark extract, Leucidal, Sorbic acid like in Geoguard, and Elderberry Extract. IF IT WOULD WORK, and I'm kinda wondering why no one has done so yet.
Or maybe I can mix Leucidal, Aspen Extract, and Elderberry Extract to get an ultimate, natural preservative???

This is just my limited understanding of these things as a home crafter, none of which I"M claiming is fact, so if I'm wrong, please input.


I'm going to call the company that makes these preservatives and ask them some questions on Monday when they open, but in the meantime, any input would be gratfully appreciated as its a burning topic for me
 
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sapone

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Swiftcraftmonkey blog site has some very interesting info on natapres, and it makes good sense what she has seen as some confusing flaws, and like you said, it is more expensive, but seems like your paying for the glycerin its desolved in?????

Geogaurd seems like it would work, but I have read several reports from people who used it and had severe PH drift days and even weeks after the lotion was made, which means your lotion could destabalize at any time.

Also it has Benzyl Alcohol in it, and I have read many evidence based reviews on it being toxic even though it is used in all kinds of stuff, but that doesn't change the fact that its toxic to life.

Neodefend has Sodium Benzoate in it which is used in food, but studies shows that it can react with Vitamin C I believe to create a carcinogenic
chemical or compound or something or another,

What I would like to see is a preservative made with Gluconolactone like in Neodefend, Aspen bark extract, Leucidal, Sorbic acid like in Geoguard, and Elderberry Extract. IF IT WOULD WORK, and I'm kinda wondering why no one has done so yet.
I have used Willow Bark extract and Neodefend together. Granted, I am using the willow bark as a gentle exfolliant in a face cream, and not as a preservative specifically, but it does have the capability to work as a preservative. I would not recommend using it as your sole preservative. However it works very well with Neodefend/Geogard (they are the same item, just sold by different suppliers). GIve it a try.
Or maybe I can mix Leucidal, Aspen Extract, and Elderberry Extract to get an ultimate, natural preservative???
You can mix them yourself- I use Neodefend/Geogard with Potassium Sorbate and have excellent results.
This is just my limited understanding of these things as a home crafter, none of which I"M claiming is fact, so if I'm wrong, please input.


I'm going to call the company that makes these preservatives and ask them some questions on Monday when they open, but in the meantime, any input would be gratfully appreciated as its a burning topic for me
You need to use a stabilizer when you use Neodefend: a 2% solution of Sodium Hydroxide and distilled water, add to the lotion in 2 ml increments to raise the pH.
 
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walkinwounded

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the manufactures says,

"
Dear Eric,

Thank you for your inquiry and interest in our products.
1.Our Shelf life for all the products mentioned is 1 year; After 1 year, we re-test to specification and possible extend another year.
2.The 4 mentioned do not need to be stabilized with Sodium Hydrolzide, If you would like to share your formula, I can have our Formulation Team review.
3.Leucidal Liquid Line is Broad Spectrum.
4.To get a broader preservative, you may combine Leucidal Liquid and Aspen Bark Extract Powder (We would expect that a blend of Leucidal Liquid (2%) and PhytoCyde Aspen Bark Extract Powder (1-1.5%) would provide proper preservation to your formula) Elderberry is Oil Soluble, therefore don’t recommend in the combination.
5.Leucidal Liquid SF is Salicylate Free whereas the Leucidal isn’t.
They both should be added to the cooling phase at temperatures below 70C

With regards to the antimicrobials, indeed adding both will provide a broader protection.
Leucidal SF needs to be added during the cooling phase but Elderberry OS should be added to the oil phase (preferably at temperatures not higher than 80C)".......




 
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walkinwounded

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Alright, after much more conversation with Maggie at "The Formulator Shop", i have been better informed and have made a revision to my answer to my own question.

Leucidal SF and Leucidal PT are Salicylate free, which is what I would use together in a lotion for children with many additives, Leucidal at its full percentage (2-4%) would be enough in a basic lotion, but if I was going to add a lot of extracts and such, I would use both to get a broader preservative system for my own comfort. I personally would try to avoid Salicylate Acid in childrens products. If I was using both I would probably use each at 2%

If I was making a lotion for adults, I would use Liquid Leucidal. If I was putting a lot of goodies and extracts in the lotion, I would use Liquid Leucidal and Leucidal PT to get the broadest protection. You could use Liquid Leucidal and Aspen Bark Extract but my concern is the amount of AHA's that would be in my lotion as I usually add Sodium Lactate and I use other extracts that act as exfoliants as well, and to many AHA's may and can irritate the skin, give rashes, etc. If I was not using many ingredients with AHA's, then I would use Liquid Leucidal and Aspen Bark Extract.

The Leucidal line is EcoCertified.
They are temperature sensitive, so read the instructions on when to add them as they can cause problems if you do not.


This is just my opinion and I feel satisfied and confident in this conclusion, so this is what I'll be trying. If it fails, back to Germall Plus!
 

BeckyTtoo

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Thanks...

Thanks WalkinWounded. Feel free to contact me anytime






Alright, , i have been better informed and have made a revision to my answer to my own question.

Leucidal SF and Leucidal PT are Salicylate free, which is what I would use together in a lotion for children with many additives, Leucidal at its full percentage (2-4%) would be enough in a basic lotion, but if I was going to add a lot of extracts and such, I would use both to get a broader preservative system for my own comfort. I personally would try to avoid Salicylate Acid in childrens products. If I was using both I would probably use each at 2%

If I was making a lotion for adults, I would use Liquid Leucidal. If I was putting a lot of goodies and extracts in the lotion, I would use Liquid Leucidal and Leucidal PT to get the broadest protection. You could use Liquid Leucidal and Aspen Bark Extract but my concern is the amount of AHA's that would be in my lotion as I usually add Sodium Lactate and I use other extracts that act as exfoliants as well, and to many AHA's may and can irritate the skin, give rashes, etc. If I was not using many ingredients with AHA's, then I would use Liquid Leucidal and Aspen Bark Extract.

The Leucidal line is EcoCertified.
They are temperature sensitive, so read the instructions on when to add them as they can cause problems if you do not.



This is just my opinion and I feel satisfied and confident in this conclusion, so this is what I'll be trying. If it fails, back to Germall Plus!
 

itunu

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Interesting post and timely, as I've just written an article on "natural" preservatives, specifically Ecocert ones and have been looking for people's feedback on how preservatives are working. Obviously it depends on the person's formula - a formula with lots of actives/botanicals is not going to do so well as a formula without.

some interesting comments on geogard ultra/neodefend - http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/preservatives-geogard-ultra.html

With regard to leucidal -

note Ann Marie's comments 17 Oct 2012 - http://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/lotion/talk-it-out-tuesday-preservatives/ "I have heard of Leucidal and have tested it personally here for potentially bringing in to Bramble Berry. It molded on us in multiple tests, some as early as a week"

and her comment on 7 Nov 12 - "We’ve tested it here and have not found it to be an adequate preservative under normal manufacturing conditions for home crafters. Our product molded rather alarmingly quickly."

Also see Robert's comment here - http://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/1809/oily-skin-moisturiser/p1

Walkinwounded - how about Euxyl K712 INCI sodium benzoate and potassium sorbate and water looks interesting especially as some cosmetic chemists over on chemistscorner have reported good stability.

There are of course other choices I've listed here - see http://makingskincare.com/preservatives/

I haven't listed all of the preservatives, as there are so many.
 
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BeckyTtoo

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thanks Itun - Just like you said, It is formula dependent.
We had so much success with Leucidal Liquid, Elderberry as well as Aspen Bark Extract.
We have major cosmetic manufacturers using this in their products as well as the handcrafter.
We find that many people are not using the anti-microbials as directed and then an issue arises.
The best thing to do with all the anti-microbials is to contact the supplier and/or manufacturers for advice.

Thanks for your input.



Interesting post and timely, as I've just written an article on "natural" preservatives, specifically Ecocert ones and have been looking for people's feedback on how preservatives are working. Obviously it depends on the person's formula - a formula with lots of actives/botanicals is not going to do so well as a formula without.

some interesting comments on geogard ultra/neodefend - http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/preservatives-geogard-ultra.html

With regard to leucidal -

note Ann Marie's comments 17 Oct 2012 - http://www.soapqueen.com/bath-and-body-tutorials/lotion/talk-it-out-tuesday-preservatives/ "I have heard of Leucidal and have tested it personally here for potentially bringing in to Bramble Berry. It molded on us in multiple tests, some as early as a week"

and her comment on 7 Nov 12 - "We’ve tested it here and have not found it to be an adequate preservative under normal manufacturing conditions for home crafters. Our product molded rather alarmingly quickly."

Also see Robert's comment here - http://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/1809/oily-skin-moisturiser/p1

Walkinwounded - how about Euxyl K712 INCI sodium benzoate and potassium sorbate and water looks interesting especially as some cosmetic chemists over on chemistscorner have reported good stability.

There are of course other choices I've listed here - see http://makingskincare.com/preservatives/

I haven't listed all of the preservatives, as there are so many.
 

walkinwounded

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Thanx itunu for the link and ideas, I like to see others questing for the right preservative.

I use potassium sorbate in my cleaning products like laundry soap and counter spray, etc etc with EcoCert surfacants like the glucosides. I never used it in creams or lotions because I read that so many people find it an irritant, and my wife and child both have very sensitive skin.
Leucidal has worked for me up to 6 months(to date) in a very basic cream, water/oil and no actives, no botanicals, with vit E, and a little protein.
Leucidal has molded in a hair conditioner I made with tons of goodies in 1 month
I still like Leucidal for basic creams that I plan on using quickly, I make a lotion for my son who uses it every day, and a jar only lasts a month, so I basically make 1 months supply at a time. Its not exposed to any extreme environmental conditons, just room temp and no sum. I use the Luecidal in this formula because it is basically as safe of a mild preservative as its going to get(provided its working) which it has to date. It has no irritation factor that I've seen and my son and wife both have very sensitive skin. So in conclusion I will use Leucidal still, but in a specific formula that is simple and designed only to last a short period of time, its great for home lotions that require a completely safe, all natural formula.
Lets face it, no natural preservative is going to compare to a chemical one, I've even had potassium sorbate preserved cleaner mold on me. So you really need to think of your formula and use of the cream, If I was selling and shipping creams around the country, I probably would op for chemicals, but as a home crafter I can use the Leucidal.

The great question still persists: Deal with the poison of a chemical preservative or the poison of a lotion that has not been properly preserved??????????

The answer: Neither, use a natural-safe preservative when you can formulate around one, that is the key, plan your formula around the preservative, if you can not, then use the chemical one, because a improper preserved lotion is much, much worse then the chemical preservative. For this a would use Germall Plus

Geogaurd/Neodefend I have not tried yet because I have read about Ph drift occurring.

I plan on trying Geogaurd ECT next, which is EcoCert and contains Benzyl Alcohol, Salicylic Acid, Glycerin, and Sorbic Acid.
I also plan on trying Leucidal PT mixed with Leucidal SF, as it seems that it should offer a fairly broad protection with the two combined.
But like most home crafters I am plagued with the (no time) issue and the (no funds) issue, so it may be a while before I get there,lol.

It should also be mentioned, that everything factors in to how well your preservative is going to work. Things like how well you wash/clean/disinfect your tools/containers/equipment before you craft, if your stuff is dirty then its going to add the bacteria and such to your lotions causing it to expire much faster. Also things like, what's your lotion for, is it going to be a face cream in a jar that you are continually sticking your dirty/germy fingers in to, adding the bacteria and fungus directly to your lotions. Environment, is it going to be sitting on the dash board of your car in extreme heat?? Everything factors in to what, and how well your preservative does.
 
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JuhiC

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Hi I was thinking of using a blend of geogard 221 plus Leucidal Liquid SF complete along with sodium phytate, any recommendations, considerations would be very helpful for me, thanks
 

KimW

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Hi @JuhiC - I know it can be difficult to tell when using a phone or small tablet, but this thread is over 8 years old, and the OP hasn't been on SMF since May 2019. I kindly suggest that you'd have a better chance at getting answers to your question if you started a new thread and then, perhaps, pasted a link to this thread in your own thread as "background" info.
 

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