Mistakenly used KOH instead of NaOH

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asmita

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Hi All

I need help. I was making castile soap using countertop HP and instead of Sodium Hydroxide I used Potassium Hydroxide. No wonder my soap is not hardening.

How can fix this soap? The soap has been in mould for 2 days.

The recipe is given in the picture

Soap DIsaster.png
 
You know how much KOH you used per the above recipe.

Recalculate the same recipe except this time actually choose KOH as the lye AND set the superfat to 3%. That will give you the amount of KOH you should have used.

Subtract what you DID use from what you SHOULD have used. That is the KOH you need to add to the recipe to fix it.

Dissolve the KOH in at least an equal weight of water. (You can use more water than the KOH weight, but not less.)

Using the protective gear you normally use for working with lye, mix this KOH solution by hand into the soap. Let it sit a few days to saponify. CAREFULLY zap test. Dilute to make liquid soap.
 
Turn it inot liquid soap?

You know how much KOH you used per the above recipe.

Recalculate the same recipe except this time actually choose KOH as the lye AND set the superfat to 3%. That will give you the amount of KOH you should have used.

Subtract what you DID use from what you SHOULD have used. That is the KOH you need to add to the recipe to fix it.

Dissolve the KOH in at least an equal weight of water. (You can use more water than the KOH weight, but not less.)

Using the protective gear you normally use for working with lye, mix this KOH solution by hand into the soap. Let it sit a few days to saponify. CAREFULLY zap test. Dilute to make liquid soap.

Thank you @DeeAnna!

Confirming steps that I need to follow
1) Calculate KOH at SF 3%
2) Subtract the KOH I have already used from this to arrive at amount I need to add further
3) Mix the arrived KOH with at least equal amount of water
4) Add this lye liquid to milled/mashed soap and mix well
5) Leave it for few days (covered?)
6) Do zap test. If passed, dilute to make liquid soap.

Questions:
1) Will I need to add preservative ?
2) If yes then at what stage and what % of oil/soap?
3) Do I leave the soap +lye mix covered or uncovered?
4) I had added fresh cream to the soap. Will it be a problem with liquid soap?

Your help is invaluable. Thank you so much.
 
1) Will I need to add preservative ?

To the soap paste? No.

To the diluted soap? There is no consistent opinion on that. A lot of people do not use preservative, especially if the soap is for personal use. If one makes liquid soap for sale, I think a preservative is important.

Your two choices are Suttocide and Liquid Germall Plus. No other preservatives will function at high pH.

2) If yes then at what stage and what % of oil/soap?

At dilution. The amount you use depends on the preservative you choose. The dosage is based on the entire amount of diluted soap you want to preserve, not on the oil weight.

3) Do I leave the soap +lye mix covered or uncovered?

Covered.

4) I had added fresh cream to the soap. Will it be a problem with liquid soap?

Yes -- it adds fat to the soap. You need to include the butterfat in your KOH calculations. Any milk proteins from the cream may cloud the soap.
 
Thank you so much for your patience @DeeAnna. You have been super helpful, in fact a saviour. I hate wasting soap. At least now I have the possibility of saving this batch. Will update on how it went.

Thanks again!
 
Ditto what DeeAnna said. The next step is figuring out the % of butterfat in your formula. If you know what % butterfat is in the cream, use that. If you don’t know, here’s some info from Wikipedia:

45% Manufacturer's cream
36% Heavy whipping cream
30% Whipping cream or light whipping cream
25% Medium cream
So, assuming you have “medium cream”, to formulate on SoapCalc:

(1) KOH
(2) 14 oz
(3) Use the water:lye ratio button. Type in 3:1 (Failor recipes use this)
(4) Use 0% superfat - Olive Oil is high in unsaponifiables. In LS you want to saponify as much of the fatty acids as possible, hence 0% SF
(6) 75% olive oil, 25% Milk fat, any bovine (scroll up from olive to find this.)
(7) Calculate recipe

On the View page, it should say:
8.4 oz or 237 grams of water (rounded)
2.8 oz or 79 grams of KOH (rounded)

You already have
152 grams of Water (rounded) So 237g minus 152g = 85g of water
50 grams of KOH (rounded) So 79g minus 50g = 29g of KOH

Temperatures are important in making LS. So make your lye solution and allow it to cool to 140°F.

Warm your already made soap to 160°F.

Add the lye solution to the warmed soap while stirring. SB to trace. This may go quickly or up to 45 minutes normally. (Your guess is as good as mine. LOL) Once the lye solution is fully incorporated, you can either stop there, cover it and allow it to cure for 1-2 weeks (CP) or HP by whatever method is most comfortable for you.

Before dilution, you need to test your soap to make sure all the lye has been saponified and there is no excess lye. You can do this by one of two ways.
1) Stick a knife in the soap and then dip it into a glass of water. Stir. If the water is milky, let the soap sit another day or 2 or 3 until the water tests clear, or almost clear before diluting.
2) Put 1 drop of phenolphthalein (10% solution) on the dipped knife. If the drop turns fuschia, there’s still some excess lye present. If it tests clear, you're good to go. Carrie Peterson’s youtube video for making Glycerin LS shows how to test LS with pheno drops at about 5 minutes into the video.

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6brP--yQpU[/ame]

DILUTION
The recommended ratio for 100% olive oil castile paste to water is
15-20% soap to 85-80% (boiling) water for dilution. This is done range top (or crock pot) on Med-Low to Low and may take several hours. The object is not to “cook” the LS, but rather to get the paste to absorb all the water. If a film forms on the surface, add water a little at a time until the film clears. You can break up the paste chunks with a spoon as needed. No matter how sorely tempted (LOL), do not use your SB. Just be patient and let the soap do its thing. This results in thin LS, but that’s just the nature of the beast! You will be surprised how well it lathers. You can then thicken with salt.

Special Tip: You can also use .5 oz. table salt (very important it be plain table salt, just the cheap stuff) dissolved in 1.5 oz. distilled (warm) water to naturally thicken the soap prior to adding fragrance. We use about 12 ml of the salt solution in 16 oz. to get a very thick soap. Give it a try!
Source:
https://www.brambleberry.com/Natural-Castile-Liquid-Soap-Base-P4609.aspx
HTH :bunny:
 
Whoa! Fabulous Info

DILUTION
The recommended ratio for 100% olive oil castile paste to water is
15-20% soap to 85-80% (boiling) water for dilution. This is done range top (or crock pot) on Med-Low to Low and may take several hours. The object is not to “cook” the LS, but rather to get the paste to absorb all the water. If a film forms on the surface, add water a little at a time until the film clears. You can break up the paste chunks with a spoon as needed. No matter how sorely tempted (LOL), do not use your SB. Just be patient and let the soap do its thing. This results in thin LS, but that’s just the nature of the beast! You will be surprised how well it lathers. You can then thicken with salt.

HTH :bunny:

Whoa! Thank you so much for the detailed information. I had not looked at liquid soaps till now. Looks like life has decided that I need to venture into that too.

I am a little scared about all the steps and quite excited too. I love bar soap but have received requests for LS. If the batch works out fine, I will have some LS.

One question though: Do I HAVE to add water after a week/2 weeks of curing or can I keep paste till I need liquid soap?
 
Yes, you can store the paste until you want to dilute it. Some soapers store their paste in the refrigerator to increase the shelf life. I store mine in a cool, dark place.

You don't have to cure liquid soap -- as long as it is zap free, it's fine to use.

I think Zany is unnecessarily complicating the process, but if it makes more sense to you to follow her methods, what she proposes will certainly work.

It is entirely possible to dilute an olive oil soap without using salt as a thickener. But, again, if it makes sense to over-dilute and then thicken with salt, then by all means do that.

Susie gives a nice, no-fuss method for diluting any liquid soap in her tutorial:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852

And Irish Lass has shared her no-fuss tutorial for making liquid soap here:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=428988 see posts 8 and 9
 
The next step is figuring out the % of butterfat in your formula. If you know what % butterfat is in the cream, use that. If you don’t know, here’s some info from Wikipedia:

So, assuming you have “medium cream”, to formulate on SoapCalc:

(1) KOH
(2) 14 oz
(3) Use the water:lye ratio button. Type in 3:1 (Failor recipes use this)
(4) Use 0% superfat - Olive Oil is high in unsaponifiables. In LS you want to saponify as much of the fatty acids as possible, hence 0% SF
(6) 75% olive oil, 25% Milk fat, any bovine (scroll up from olive to find this.)
(7) Calculate recipe

[/CENTER]

After re-re-reading this information, I have more questions. I hope you will help.

1) I had added 50 gm cream besides 400 gm OO
2) I don't know the butterfat content so will go with medium cream.

Given this additional information, how should I calculate for lye? Should I take 50/4 i.e 12.5 gm as Butterfat and 400 gm OO to calculate KOH and then follow the subsequent calculation pattern of deducting already used water and lye to arrive at the numbers that I need to use now?
 
The 50g cream factors in as part of the water portion. Yes? The butterfat contained in the cream is factored in with the other fatty acids on the list of oilsl/fats/butters/etc. Make sense?

ETA: If you've never made LS before, whatever you do, don't try Carrie's glycerin LS as seen in the video above. It's an advanced technique. To get your feet wet, DeeAnna posted links to Irish Lass's and Susie's LS. I'd recommend you start there. Many members have tried theirs with success, so there would be lotsa help around should you need it. :)
 
The 50g cream factors in as part of the water portion. Yes? The butterfat contained in the cream is factored in with the other fatty acids on the list of oilsl/fats/butters/etc. Make sense?


I am still confused so sharing the soapcalc figures with KOH as lye here. Please help confirm is this calculation is correct or should I amend it further.

With KOH as lye.jpg
 
Yes, you can store the paste until you want to dilute it. Some soapers store their paste in the refrigerator to increase the shelf life. I store mine in a cool, dark place.

You don't have to cure liquid soap -- as long as it is zap free, it's fine to use.

I think Zany is unnecessarily complicating the process, but if it makes more sense to you to follow her methods, what she proposes will certainly work.

It is entirely possible to dilute an olive oil soap without using salt as a thickener. But, again, if it makes sense to over-dilute and then thicken with salt, then by all means do that.

Susie gives a nice, no-fuss method for diluting any liquid soap in her tutorial:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=49852


And Irish Lass has shared her no-fuss tutorial for making liquid soap here:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?p=428988 see posts 8 and 9


Thank you for the links. For some reason I couldn't see your post earlier so was wondering where the links were that you had shared.

I had shared the recaiculation in the previous post. I am pretty sure I have got it wrong since I have still to figure out the milk fat calculation. Can you please help me with finalizing the total amount of KOH that should have been used?Once I am sure of this number, rest of the things I think I can sort out.
 
Is 1.76 oz the amount of milk you added? If so this is not correct - as that milk is not 100% fat.

Most of us do not figure the milk fat into our recipes - and I don't think any of us add it to our liquid soap. I think you would be better off calculating to a 0% SF. Then whatever % milk fat is in the milk will be your SF.
 
Tell you what, Asmita --

Recalculate the recipe exactly as you show in Post 11 except for one change -- remove the 50 g of "butterfat". Keep your superfat set at zero as shown and all the other settings exactly as before. That is the KOH you should have used. Subtract the KOH you DID add from this number. The answer is the KOH that needs to be added.

Yes, this is an estimate. But it's a reasonable estimate that I think will be fine for your situation. Just give it a try, please? Take a calming breath and do your best!

If you want to follow Zany's instructions for adding the extra KOH, you certainly can. But my method (Post 2) will work fine if you want to keep things as simple as possible and don't mind waiting a few days for the KOH to react.
 
Tell you what, Asmita --

Recalculate the recipe exactly as you show in Post 11 except for one change -- remove the 50 g of "butterfat". Keep your superfat set at zero as shown and all the other settings exactly as before. That is the KOH you should have used. Subtract the KOH you DID add from this number. The answer is the KOH that needs to be added.

Thanks a ton! This good enough place to start. Zany also advised the same.

Will post results soon :)
 
Am back with the update and request for more help.

The paste was not solid as others that I have read about but it could be the effect of ACV and fresh cream. I tried diluting a small batch of paste. It guzzled water. After a point I lost track of the amount of water I had added.

Finally stopped adding more water when the consistency was on the thickish side but not too much. My issue was that it was slightly slimy looking. And drying.

Another soaper asked me allow it to cure for sometime and that it would become gentler. It definitely seems so now so I want to dilute more soap paste.

I have been recording the amount of hot distilled water I used this time. Till now I have added 4.5 times the paste!! Is this normal? The soap is still thickish and slimy. How do I make it more flowy?

I have yet to add EO/FO and colour. I am assuming addition of these will dilute it further. But I need something to reduce or eliminate the slimy flowing of the soap. While using it is good, no slimy feeling. It is only in the appearance i.e when I use pump to squeeze out soap, the last drop elongates as a drip.

Please Help
 
"...the effect of ACV and fresh cream..."

Uh, okay, so you have already mentioned the cream but you failed to mention the apple cider vinegar until now. Do you realize that vinegar will also increase the superfat in this soap? Ideally you should have also calculated the extra alkali (KOH) needed to react with any acid, and this includes vinegar.

"...Till now I have added 4.5 times the paste!! Is this normal?..."

That is within the realm of reason for a 100% olive oil soap. That's why most of us do not make 100% olive oil liquid soap. You're better off using a blend of fats, such as Irish Lass' coconut, olive, and castor recipe. I know you didn't start out to make this type of soap -- so I'm mentioning this as something to file away for future reference.

"...when I use pump to squeeze out soap, the last drop elongates as a drip..."

That is normal for liquid soap that's anything but water thin, and this is doubly true for 100% olive oil soap. You can use different type of dispenser -- a cap with a flip top for example -- to keep that last little bit from drying into a plug.
 
Thank You

"...the effect of ACV and fresh cream..."

Uh, okay, so you have already mentioned the cream but you failed to mention the apple cider vinegar until now. Do you realize that vinegar will also increase the superfat in this soap? Ideally you should have also calculated the extra alkali (KOH) needed to react with any acid, and this includes vinegar.

"...Till now I have added 4.5 times the paste!! Is this normal?..."

That is within the realm of reason for a 100% olive oil soap. That's why most of us do not make 100% olive oil liquid soap. You're better off using a blend of fats, such as Irish Lass' coconut, olive, and castor recipe. I know you didn't start out to make this type of soap -- so I'm mentioning this as something to file away for future reference.

"...when I use pump to squeeze out soap, the last drop elongates as a drip..."

That is normal for liquid soap that's anything but water thin, and this is doubly true for 100% olive oil soap. You can use different type of dispenser -- a cap with a flip top for example -- to keep that last little bit from drying into a plug.

Thank you so much DeeAnna!

Just realized that I had forgotten mentioning ACV. Guess I was so frazzled that I missed sharing this bit of important information.

All seems according to expected then. Yes, I got fliptop. Attaching a picture of the soap made to a cousin's wish. Fragrance is coolwater.

This one and all my liquid soaps are dedicated to all of you. I would not have ventured into this branch of soaping for a long time, if not for this accident and then support here.

IMG_20170617_100651 ed.jpg
 

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