Meadowfoam oil, so much conditioning....but from where?

[Johnez]

98 conditioning, and not a single fatty acid that contributes. Curious as to where the conditioning number is being derived from here. I know there's a bit of black magic surrounding certain fats and their properties, this kinda stood out to me though. I originally saw the fatty acid profile and bar quality number at SMFcalc and decided to double check. Same result.

 

[Cat&Oak]

@ResolvableOwl? We are all waiting patiently?

 

[Johnez]

@ResolvableOwl? We are all waiting patiently?

No pressure or anything RO.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

SORRRRYYYY for being late

https://plantfadb.org/plants/13020The seven “major”/“common” FAs make up for >90% of most oils (castor as a common exception).
Meadowfoam is really another outlier under the plant oils, in that it indeed contains very little of these. AFAIK it is indeed absolutely worthless for soapmaking, and in fact must be disposed of very carefully and by professionals only (I've heard @AliOop operates a meadowfoam destruction facility at home).

I'm not a big fan of that “conditioning” number, it appears to me as just a way to combine the FAs that don't contribute to lather, hardness, and longevity into something that looks “positive”, to cheer up soft recipes. Those who feel that they are in need of a more conditioning feel after washing hands/skin, should seek their fortune in leave-on products, not in soap.
BTW: The “conditioning” number is essentially the percentage of unsaturated FAs (as the “hardness” number is the saturated FAs added up). The two numbers are a fancy way to hide the sat:unsat ratio into a “property number profile”, no more and no less.

Back to meadowfoam. Its major constituent is C20:1, in the carbon backbone length in between oleic acid (C18:1) and erucic acid (C22:1). If someone really wants to waste meadowfoam (IV 92) for soapmaking, go on! I'd guess it would behave somewhere in between HO safflower (IV 93) and abyssinia oil (IV 98). How convenient that someone has tested these two already .
tl;dr For something that's so raved about like meadowfoam oil, it would most probably make a remarkably boring soap. Castile-like when used pure, and hardly distinguishable from OO and HO seed oils in balanced recipes.

not a single fatty acid that contributes

When you look closely, they have hosed their database. Oleic acid doesn't contribute "0", but "0 " (with extra space at the end). Soapmaking Friend has 18 oleic + 11 linoleic as unsaturated major FAs. Soapee Next has another opinion on it as well.

 

[AliOop]

Not RO, but here's what I found:

Limnanthes alba is a flowering plant native to North America. The oil from Limnanthes alba seeds, contains over 98% long chain fatty acids including 52-77% eicosenoic acid (20 carbons long). The high content of long chain fatty acids in this oil results in this oil being very stable.

EDIT: I see that RO finally answered the page. Whew. And thank you for reminding folks that I will, as a selfless sacrifice, accept any shipments of unwanted meadowfoam so that others are not troubled by its presence in their facilities.

 

[Johnez]

When you look closely, they have hosed their database. Oleic acid doesn't contribute "0", but "0 " (with extra space at the end). Soapmaking Friend has 18 oleic + 11 linoleic as unsaturated major FAs. Soapee Next has another opinion on it as well.

Wow-great eyes on the "0 " thing! Thanks for the soapee link and the breakdown explaining the major/minor fatty acid connection. It kind of feels like there's a back room with regards to oils and their composition. Everything is fine and then, what's behind this door....whooooaaaa!

I may have to further retrain my brain to simply formulate by FAs, thankfully I'm not too entrenched in the "quality" numbers. Shave soaping has taught me the importance of FA and to almost completely ignore quality numbers, "hardness" with 100% KOH being prime example. But then besides the curtain is the secret underground passageway of..... unsaponifiables. One challenge at a time I guess ha!

 

[AliOop]

Yes, and what the heck is eicosenoic acid anyway??

And how do they come up with SAPs for these FAs that aren't listed in the calculator?

 

[Johnez]

And how do they come up with SAPs for these FAs that aren't listed in the calculator?

My guess is somebody did a titration test somewhere. That is something on my list of things to try if I ever become a pro soaper with dedicated space.

 

[DeeAnna]

Saponification values used in industry (and thus in small-scale soap making) are based on testing samples of the actual fats. They're not based on theoretical calculations, so you don't need to know anything about the chemical makeup of a fat to find its sap value.

 

[AliOop]

Saponification values used in industry (and thus in small-scale soap making) are based on testing samples of the actual fats. They're not based on theoretical calculations, so you don't need to know anything about the chemical makeup of a fat to find its sap value.

Good to know - thank you!

 

[glendam]

Very interesting insight about meadow foam, thank you!
My first lotions were with meadow foam oil (among others); they were hand lotions but my sister used them on her face and later asked me for more of the same lotion. (She and I have dry skin) I had done several other formulations since, so I had to look at the label closely to figure out which one I had used and realized this seemed to be a key ingredient.