Maximum Oleic Acid

Discussion in 'Lye-Based Soap Forum' started by Dean, Apr 16, 2018.

Help Support Soapmaking Forum by donating:

  1. Apr 16, 2018 #1

    Dean

    Dean

    Dean

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    1,148
    Likes Received:
    897
    Hello all,

    I just discovered that a high percent of oleic acid in soap can make it slimy. I thought it was only OO that did this but now I realize its the oleic because both my OO and almond oil soaps were slimy. From your experience, what is the maximum percent of oleic acid in soap that that won't create slime?

    Thanks in advance!
     
  2. Apr 16, 2018 #2
  3. Apr 17, 2018 #3
  4. Mar 10, 2019 #4

    Dean

    Dean

    Dean

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    1,148
    Likes Received:
    897
    In light of @Zany_in_CO’s Zeawater Zoap recipie, I’m bumping this thread. Its been reported that 50% oleic is the threshold for soap with wo oleic gel. Do you agree that this is the threshold?

    Second question, can a high conditioning property counter act the cleansing property? For example, lets say my cleansing prop is a 7 (already intentionally low for dry skin), if I increase the cond prop will itbdecrease the cleansing (dryness) effect?

    Thx in adv.
     
    Carolyne Thrasher likes this.
  5. Mar 10, 2019 #5

    Meena

    Meena

    Meena

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2018
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    663
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    I haven't found this to be so. My soaps with cleansing #s of 13 - 18 had conditioning values of 59 - 61, and as we talked about in another thread, those soaps were still too drying for either of us.

    50 has been my highest oleic value so far, and haven't seen any slime. Coincidentally, that value is with my C-5 soap that I tried yesterday, and I didn't note any snot. That soap's Conditioning value is 67, the highest on that # so far. Slightly dense, creamy lather with small bubbles from the sugar, I imagine.

    There's an intersect here somewhere, but not sure where it lies; for the C-5 has the highest conditioning and DID work, whereas the next highest -- the 61 conditioning -- did not work with the higher cleansing #. In other words, if this could somehow be graphed on a continuum -- not just 2 values -- there should be a point where the lines cross. But maybe not... I'm probably just overthinking in my mad scientist fashion. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2019
  6. Mar 10, 2019 #6

    DeeAnna

    DeeAnna

    DeeAnna

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    10,942
    Likes Received:
    14,416
    Location:
    Northeast Iowa, USA
    "...Its been reported that 50% oleic is the threshold for soap with wo oleic gel. Do you agree that this is the threshold?..."

    I'm not sure I agree this is a hard-and-fast dividing line, although I've used 50% as a rule of thumb in other threads.

    A 100% olive oil soap is going to be around 70% oleic acid. High oleic sunflower and safflower have even higher % of oleic acid. I think we can all agree that these fats at 100% will make high oleic soaps. HO canola and avocado are about 60% oleic. The avocado soap I've made is a high oleic soap with that characteristic ropy/slimy oleic gel, and I imagine (but haven't tried it) that HO canola will too.

    When the oleic content drops into the 50% to 60% range, the results are going to be more variable -- some soaps may act like high oleic and some might not. A soap with less than 50% oleic acid probably will not act like a high oleic soap.

    So define the boundary as you see fit.

    No, I don't think a high "conditioning" number offsets a high "cleansing" number. The conditioning number doesn't include the palmitic and stearic acid content, and I think these fatty acids add as much or more to soap's mildness as oleic and linoleic acids do. And if your skin is sensitive to the stripping and irritating effects of lauric acid soap, your skin is not going to lose that sensitivity no matter what the "conditioning" number is.
     
  7. Mar 22, 2019 #7

    earlene

    earlene

    earlene

    Grandmother & Soaper Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    6,251
    Likes Received:
    5,611
    Location:
    Western Illinois, USA
    I have experienced a phenomena with adding egg yoke to soap with a higher than normal-for-me cleansing number where the soap is mild. I am not sure what is counteracting the harshness of the cleansing property, but perhaps it is the protein or other ingredients in egg yolks, that when altered by the lye, create a by-product that does counteract the cleansing value. I have repeated the same recipe in question a few times, and get a consistent result, so I know it wasn't just a fluke.
     
    Phlier and Meena like this.
  8. Mar 22, 2019 #8

    Clarice

    Clarice

    Clarice

    We are one... Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    564
    Location:
    HotLanta - OTP
    @Dean

    May I clarify - you said: It's been reported that 50% oleic is the threshold for soap with wo oleic gel.

    Can you help a newbie understand that sentence? what does "wo oleic gel" mean?

    Thank you. By the way - I used some of my @Zany_in_CO castile yesterday (four weeks old) and I did not get any slime, I keep it in a coated wire tray that is affixed to my shower wall with suction cups - so it does indeed dry out well between uses - which is one of the things that Z advised, I believe.

    Thank you!
     
    Zany_in_CO likes this.
  9. Mar 22, 2019 #9

    Meena

    Meena

    Meena

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2018
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    663
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    You inadvertently answered your own question. :) Oleic gel = slime (or snot).

    Oh --> wo = w/o = without.
     
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2019
  10. Mar 22, 2019 #10

    Clarice

    Clarice

    Clarice

    We are one... Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    564
    Location:
    HotLanta - OTP
    Sorry, It still does not make sense to me, replacing without for the wo it reads

    It's been reported that 50% oleic is the threshold for soap with without oleic gel.!

    Not understanding! HELP!
     
  11. Mar 22, 2019 #11

    The Efficacious Gentleman

    The Efficacious Gentleman

    The Efficacious Gentleman

    Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2013
    Messages:
    8,929
    Likes Received:
    8,878
    Location:
    Austria
    That if you want a soap with no (without) oleic gel (slime) then 50% oleic is your limit
    Edit - the double 'with' is most likely a typo
     
  12. Mar 22, 2019 #12

    Meena

    Meena

    Meena

    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2018
    Messages:
    852
    Likes Received:
    663
    Location:
    Denver, CO
    Without GETTING oleic gel, in other words. :)
     
  13. Mar 22, 2019 #13

    Clarice

    Clarice

    Clarice

    We are one... Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    564
    Location:
    HotLanta - OTP
    Is Oleic Gel another term for slime?

    Edited

    @The Efficacious Gentleman confirmed that "Oleic Gel" is another term for slime, thank you!

    In that case, I guess I must beg to differ - unless we have different definitions of slime?

    To me, slime will occur in almost any soap that is left in a wet dish, on a wet tray, etc.

    I let mine dry out between uses, so I don't have this happen.

    In addition, I have not experienced slime during use with my four week old @Zany_in_CO 's no slime castile.

    Cheers!
     
    Zany_in_CO likes this.
  14. Mar 22, 2019 #14

    Dean

    Dean

    Dean

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    1,148
    Likes Received:
    897
    @Clarice Sorry for the typo. Per DeeAnna...50-60% oleic is the threshold for soap without gel/snot/slime.
     
  15. Mar 22, 2019 #15

    Clarice

    Clarice

    Clarice

    We are one... Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    564
    Location:
    HotLanta - OTP
    Thank you @Dean! I am getting used to terms!

    And, as I said above, I have not had issues with slime using @Zany_in_CO 's recipe - in which I used 100% OO (regular, not pomace) - I wonder if the regular v pomace makes a difference?
     
  16. Mar 23, 2019 #16

    Dawni

    Dawni

    Dawni

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2018
    Messages:
    1,807
    Likes Received:
    2,297
    Location:
    Philippines
    @Clarice, three things.

    First, I think the slime also depends on your olive oil. Others have reported less slime than what others have experienced, even with regular Castile. Same with the faux seawater. As for personal experience, I've yet to make regular Castile, but so far the one using faux seawater had no slime at all even just a day after (I made mine HP though).

    Second, same as above, people have noticed difference in slime depending on the water they used. I've read several mentions of real seawater, and/or some amount of salt reduces slime. I can't remember if it was also some amount of vinegar..

    Last, I'm trying to find a picture that shows clearly the slime mentioned. I saw it once and immediately thought it an entity in itself lol, very much NOT like the gel stuff I get when someone submerges any soap, even commercial ones. I'll come back n post it as soon as I find it.

    I'll also come back with links to back up the first two points, if I can find them, but hopefully someone more experienced can agree or refute these.
     
    Clarice likes this.
  17. Mar 24, 2019 #17

    earlene

    earlene

    earlene

    Grandmother & Soaper Lifetime Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 30, 2016
    Messages:
    6,251
    Likes Received:
    5,611
    Location:
    Western Illinois, USA
    And then there is the subjective factor. Slime can be measured objectively, true, but for some of us the subjective feel of slime is less of an ick factor than it is for others.

    Example of Castile slime (aka Olive Oil Snot or Castile snot):

    Castile Slime.JPG
     
  18. Mar 24, 2019 #18

    Dean

    Dean

    Dean

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2018
    Messages:
    1,148
    Likes Received:
    897
    :eek:
     
    KiwiMoose likes this.
  19. Mar 24, 2019 #19

    DeeAnna

    DeeAnna

    DeeAnna

    Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 20, 2013
    Messages:
    10,942
    Likes Received:
    14,416
    Location:
    Northeast Iowa, USA
    Oleic gel (aka slime or snot) is what Earlene is showing in her picture. It's what you get when a high oleic soap absorbs sufficient water to turn from a solid form into a gelatinous stringy goo.

    Whether you see the actual goo or not depends on the way the soap is used (puff or washcloth vs. lathering up in the hands, for example), the rate of mixing and aeration, the water hardness, the amount of water mixed with the soap, the temperature, and how carefully one observes what's happening.

    IMO, most of the cures for making a slime-free high-oleic soap do not actually work. Some of these cures include using a very high excess lye, putting the soap through a long cure, soaping with "faux seawater", etc. In the end, they are all asking a high-oleic soap to become something it's not.

    The only way to definitely change the properties of a high oleic soap is to physically alter the average chemical composition of the soap molecules. Reducing the oleic acid content is one way, but then we no longer have a high oleic soap. If the fatty acid profile needs to remain high oleic, then another option is to substitute another alkali (KOH or NH4OH) for some or all of the NaOH, so the soap is no longer a pure sodium soap, but also has some of the properties of a potassium or ammonium soap.

    Any soap will absorb water if left in a wet soap dish, but some soap will create an oleic gel that has a stringy quality and others will produce a thick paste that is not stringy. In either case, this is called "mush" in commercial soap making.
     
    Dawni likes this.
  20. Mar 25, 2019 #20

    Clarice

    Clarice

    Clarice

    We are one... Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Jan 10, 2019
    Messages:
    914
    Likes Received:
    564
    Location:
    HotLanta - OTP
    Aha. @earlene that picture helps thank you.

    I have not yet experienced that. Perhaps my house water is a factor as well.

    I can see the ick factor there. And maybe I am less sensitive to it than others? Tactile preference is personal, right?

    Thanks for increasing my learning!

    And @DeeAnna i know what you mean re soap having different characteristics when stored wet. Some gets globvy goo some seems to just dissolve,etc. I use my bars directly on my skin or with a super hard scratchy cloth. Perhaps both of these things combined with airy drying rack between uses all combine to limit my experience with “Castile snot”
     

Share This Page