Masterbatching Lye/Vinegar

[cmzaha]

I know someone ask a little while about masterbatching lye and vinegar but I don't think an answer showed up or if it did I could not find the thread it was posted in. So I decided to masterbatch a 60 oz batch of NaOH, and silk cocoons in Vinegar adding in the extra NaOH needed. First off I did not know if vinegar could accept the extra NaOH since I was batching at 50/50. Short answer it did and the cocoons dissolved. I only let it sit for 2 days before using but it worked great other than it is reminiscent of snot. I knew it would thicken after forming sodium acetate, since I have let it sit all day in the past, but the silk thickened it even more. Now I am going to make up another batch and see if it stores for longer periods of time. I have fallen in love with using vinegar but hate making up the lye for each batch. My EDTA and Sugar I just dissolve in the additional liquid I am going to use. It sure made my soaping day easier yesterday. One issue is you will lose some due to the thickness of the solution and you need to stir or shake well. I am going to store mine in a hdpe bucket so I can wipe down the container sides after pouring out what I need. It is certainly peskier than a regular 50/50 masterbatch but it saved time, and time is not on my side these days.

What do you think DeeAnna. Do you think it will deteriorate over time?

 

[IrishLass]

Thanks for sharing, Carolyn! I'm excited to hear how long it keeps/stores for you!


IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

Carolyn -- I did a little thinking about this idea of masterbatching a vinegar-lye solution, but wanted to check with you to make sure I understand what you're doing --

Are you making your masterbatch with a given weight of vinegar and the same weight of NaOH? If not, what did you do? And at what temperature are you able to store the masterbatch solution in your part of So Cal?

I don't think it's possible to get a true 50% NaOH masterbatch without one of two things -- either including some water or storing the masterbatch solution at a higher ambient temperature than what I can manage in wintry Iowa.

As far as deterioration during storage, it would be the cocoons that would give you trouble I would think. I appreciate why you'd want to dissolve them in your masterbatch -- this will be a real timesaver. I would watch this batch for any texture and color changes. You could also do a lye purity check every so often, if you were willing to do that.

 

[cmzaha]

Carolyn -- I did a little thinking about this idea of masterbatching a vinegar-lye solution, but wanted to check with you to make sure I understand what you're doing --

Are you making your masterbatch with a given weight of vinegar and the same weight of NaOH? If not, what did you do? And at what temperature are you able to store the masterbatch solution in your part of So Cal?

I don't think it's possible to get a true 50% NaOH masterbatch without one of two things -- either including some water or storing the masterbatch solution at a higher ambient temperature than what I can manage in wintry Iowa.

As far as deterioration during storage, it would be the cocoons that would give you trouble I would think. I appreciate why you'd want to dissolve them in your masterbatch -- this will be a real timesaver. I would watch this batch for any texture and color changes. You could also do a lye purity check every so often, if you were willing to do that.

I would not store it with the cocoons. I only did that when I was going to use it yesterday. When I first mix it I used the 50/50 vinegar/NaOH after it was hot I added in the extra NaOH. This does make it thick even without the cocoons. Of course I do not store mine for more than 3 months. I used up all I had and now am leaving for my moms for the month. When I made it the other day I made enough for my 6 batches with a little left over. Will have to consider doing a lye purity check. It was in the 50's in my house and low 40's in the mornings. For here we are having cold weather. LOL, anything lower than 50ºF is cold to me brrrrrrr...... Thankyou for taking the time to answer, you are just so helpful. My soap did great, de-molded in 9 hrs.

 

[DeeAnna]

I would not store it with the cocoons. I only did that when I was going to use it yesterday.

Thanks for explaining. I misunderstood -- I'm on the same page with you now.

"...When I first mix it I used the 50/50 vinegar/NaOH after it was hot I added in the extra NaOH.... Of course I do not store mine for more than 3 months. I used up all I had..."

That makes a lot of sense. We say 50% is the maximum amount of NaOH at room temperature, but that's not strictly correct. Technically you can make a 52% NaOH solution as long as you keep it at or above 60 F (20 C), although the rule of thumb of 50% NaOH max is plenty good enough -- it allows for some error, allows some leeway in storage temperature, and makes the math as simple as possible.

Now that you've explained the details, I suspect you used up your vinegar-lye masterbatch while it was still on the warmish side. If so, that's why it worked for you. I'm going to have to write up an an article to calculate this kind of masterbatch -- I know you aren't the only one who has thought about doing this.

"...It was in the 50's in my house and low 40's in the mornings. ..."

I inadvertently let a 50% masterbatch solution get really cold this winter -- it was in the coldest corner of my poorly heated pantry. I'm certain the solution was well below 60 F (20 C), but I didn't think to measure the temp. It had become a very thick syrup and crystals were settling out on the bottom of the container.

 

[sherrig]

I am curious about the temperature talk. I recently build a room in my basement for soaping and found my last batch looked like it had lye crystals throughout the bar. Almost like the white dots you can see in the occasion pine tar batch. I am 99.99% sure it was fully dissolved, but I do work in a 17-19 degree room. Will cooler temps impact the solution? It wasnt a consideration when I placed myself in the basement. In the batch I am talking about I had a batch of oils and they had slightly solidified, I have a lazy approach putting my room temp lye into the room temp oil. Things seems just fine until I popped them out and saw the spots of white.

I put this in this thread as my lye was a master batch for these oils. I do up 10 k of oil and then mix my lye so when I do a batch all is at the ready. The oils and lye were less than a week old. Only 1 of the 6 batches I did from this batch had these dots.

I was wishfully thinking they could have been coconut dots. Now.. I am second guessing that. I have had 3 batches now over the years do this. I have used them personally just to see if the white dots were lye or what. All with no issues. One batch was an attempt at making coal soap for christmas, ugly ugly stuff, but wow what a great bar.

I had tea mixed in with the lye to add colour, I got more seize than I could control, so it never settled into the molds I had planned for it, adding to its ugly. After I un-moulded it, it seriously looked like the lye had been sprinkled on top as so much had settled on the bottom of the moulds.

I left it for a month as I didnt want to toss it away without doing so safely, I thought that meant making sure that it couldn't react if tossed into the garbage. So when I finally got around to being ready to toss it, I just had to experiment to see how it lathered. It worked fine. And there was no lye issue. I dont know if it was fully neutralized by the passage of time or what.

So I do have a bit of a history with these white dots. And the ones in this current bar are very tiny, they look more like solidified oil not lye crystals.

I will post a pic, the dots are noticeable in the purple part

Hoping someone can give me some insight. That would be greatly appreciated.

 

[shunt2011]

Did you zap test your soaps to see if it is indeed lye? I've found that if lye gets too cold it can get a crust on it. I just mix it in and then strain my lye into my oils. Depending on your recipe it could also be pieces of solidified oils. If you use hard oils (coconut, shea, cocoa butter, palm), the oils need to be warmed up at least until they are clear.

 

[DeeAnna]

If you are certain all the NaOH in your lye solution was completely dissolved before you used the solution to make soap, this will not magically create solid lumps of NaOH in your soap. You might find pockets of alkaline fluid if something went a little wrong, but not chunks of solid NaOH. As Shari said, you need to zap test rather than assume. My thought is you've got stearic spots -- bits of uncolored soap.

 

[sherrig]

Well this definitely gives me more insight, and not he answer I was looking for... the crystals are actually coming out. I have hung them up and am 99.99999% sure I would have noticed the lye crystals if they were there when I took them from the mold. I was eyeing them up pretty critically

A few have this where they didn't just 2 days ago.

If you are certain all the NaOH in your lye solution was completely dissolved before you used the solution to make soap, this will not magically create solid lumps of NaOH in your soap. You might find pockets of alkaline fluid if something went a little wrong, but not chunks of solid NaOH. As Shari said, you need to zap test rather than assume. My thought is you've got stearic spots -- bits of uncolored soap.

No. I am thinking I obviously messed up the mix. I find that rather confounding as I am usually so over the top in my stages... I am getting old. I will have to go see what I failed to do and not repeat it.
I did get a fabric mesh screen (reusable Coffee filter) to strain from here in on out so that will take crystals out of the equation. it isnt anything I have had happen before with the full crystal popping out like it has. Curious

I still have lots of this oil batch mixed up and have to redo another lye batch so I am going to redo this recipe and see if I can get it right.

 

[shunt2011]

No. I am thinking I obviously messed up the mix. I find that rather confounding as I am usually so over the top in my stages... I am getting old. I will have to go see what I failed to do and not repeat it.
I did get a fabric mesh screen (reusable Coffee filter) to strain from here in on out so that will take crystals out of the equation. it isnt anything I have had happen before with the full crystal popping out like it has. Curious

I still have lots of this oil batch mixed up and have to redo another lye batch so I am going to redo this recipe and see if I can get it right.

Another question, did you use salt or sugar and not dissolve it in the water before adding lye? Just another possibility. Some have been known to add it to their oils thinking it will dissolve. Just trying to help troubleshoot.

 

[penelopejane]

Pretty sure they are stearic spots. I get them when not soaping hot enough. I now soap at 110*F (when all are mixed together) and no more spots.

Undissolved salt usually has a little halo around it.
Crystals (from additives) formed when the lye cools can be strained out.

The crystals on the outside are something else. I got them once when I messed up the recipe and added way too much lye. They never went away even after i washed them off they reappeared forever!

White stuff on top and/or on sides of the soap that can be washed off is soda ash. Soaping warm, spraying with isopropyl alcohol, covering your mold and insulating stops that.

 

[sherrig]

I did find this (Link below) which seems to imply I might have been too cold, or that is how I am reading it at least


''However, if your 50% lye solution is used or stored in an environment that is too cold (less than 25° C or 77° F), the lye can precipitate out of the solution.''

I am not sure about the rules for sharing links, but I found that information here.

www modernsoapmaking com/lye-solution-in-soapmaking/


My other bars had a warmer room as there was a cold snap and I had the furnace on. It has warmed up outside and I turned the heat off. I Master-batch the same lye ratio every time. 45/65% lye/liquid, this one was the last of the mix.

But the room itself might have just been too cold to store a master batch of lye without some settling. It was the last of the batch which almost implies I was lye light in my other batches, which all seem nice. So I am not sure.

 

[mx5inpenn]

I did find this (Link below) which seems to imply I might have been too cold, or that is how I am reading it at least


''However, if your 50% lye solution is used or stored in an environment that is too cold (less than 25° C or 77° F), the lye can precipitate out of the solution.''

I am not sure about the rules for sharing links, but I found that information here.

www modernsoapmaking com/lye-solution-in-soapmaking/


My other bars had a warmer room as there was a cold snap and I had the furnace on. It has warmed up outside and I turned the heat off. I Master-batch the same lye ratio every time. 45/65% lye/liquid, this one was the last of the mix.

But the room itself might have just been too cold to store a master batch of lye without some settling. It was the last of the batch which almost implies I was lye light in my other batches, which all seem nice. So I am not sure.

I am not sure about this info. I keep my masterbatch lye in the garage. I live in NW PA, its cold! I've never had it freeze, but it gets very cold. I bring it inside to warm up about an hour before making soap, but its still pretty cold. I give it a good shake before use and have never had an issue.

 

[DeeAnna]

The numbers are a little off in the Modern Soapmaking article.

"...We say 50% is the maximum amount of NaOH at room temperature, but that's not strictly correct. Technically you can make a 52% NaOH solution as long as you keep it at or above 60 F (20 C)..." (From my post #5, above)

A 50% NaOH solution will certainly get thicker as it gets colder, but it won't actually precipitate until it cools below 60 F. I don't have the exact number for the freeze point of a 50% solution, but it's in the middle to upper 50s F. I'm basing this on tech data from Dow Chemical and Occidental Chemical, both manufacturers of sodium hydroxide.

 

[Tinlee]

I know someone ask a little while about masterbatching lye and vinegar but I don't think an answer showed up or if it did I could not find the thread it was posted in. So I decided to masterbatch a 60 oz batch of NaOH, and silk cocoons in Vinegar adding in the extra NaOH needed. First off I did not know if vinegar could accept the extra NaOH since I was batching at 50/50. Short answer it did and the cocoons dissolved. I only let it sit for 2 days before using but it worked great other than it is reminiscent of snot. I knew it would thicken after forming sodium acetate, since I have let it sit all day in the past, but the silk thickened it even more. Now I am going to make up another batch and see if it stores for longer periods of time. I have fallen in love with using vinegar but hate making up the lye for each batch. My EDTA and Sugar I just dissolve in the additional liquid I am going to use. It sure made my soaping day easier yesterday. One issue is you will lose some due to the thickness of the solution and you need to stir or shake well. I am going to store mine in a hdpe bucket so I can wipe down the container sides after pouring out what I need. It is certainly peskier than a regular 50/50 masterbatch but it saved time, and time is not on my side these days.

What do you think DeeAnna. Do you think it will deteriorate over time?

For the uneducated- lye and vinegar? Cocoons? Vinegar neutralizes lye? Please elucidate and educate? I smell a learning opportunity.

 

[DeeAnna]

Here are the basics: https://classicbells.com/soap/aceticAcid.html

 

[Tinlee]

Here are the basics: https://classicbells.com/soap/aceticAcid.html

Great read - THANKS!!!

 

[madison]

Here are the basics: https://classicbells.com/soap/aceticAcid.html

I was looking for this information for sometime, I didn't know I can find it on your website. Thank you DeeAnna.

 

[sherrig]

Another question, did you use salt or sugar and not dissolve it in the water before adding lye? Just another possibility. Some have been known to add it to their oils thinking it will dissolve. Just trying to help troubleshoot.

I appreciate that. I cleaned all the crystals off of the soap only to have several more come out. Not lots, but enough that it catches the eye. The crystals were hard like sugar, but no I hadn't added any.

I took the chance and put one on my tongue, definite zap. That was well over 10 days after unmolding. I have also used it, A nice soap. If I ever have a repeat I will detail it more maybe. Finding out what not to do so I dont repeat it was my only concern.

 

[Traumabrew]

Can someone point me to a place I can learn to masterbatch lye solution? How do you use the masterbatch lye solution. Is it based on grams/ounces of lye per ml/ounce of solution? Then do you add water or other liquid to make up the total volume of liquid for the batch?

I read the article about using vinegar in soap. The section where she explains the math is confusing. But it boils down to: for every ounce by weight (or 28 grams) of vinegar you add 1 gram NaOH or 1.4 grams of KOH extra/in addition to the original amount of NaOH/KOH required for your recipe. So if a recipe calls for 20 oz liquid/water (and you replace all 20 ounces by vinegar) and 7 ounces (198 grams) of NaOH, you add 20 grams of NaOH to the original 7 ounces (20 gams is 0.71 ounces by weight) to get 7.71 ounces by weight (218 gams) of NaOH total. Is this correct?

Are there any other benefits to adding vinegar to soap other than to harden the soap? Why go to all the extra effort?