lye error

[slapdash soap maker]

Hello, my first attempt at liquid soap making and I can't believe I used sodium hydroxide instead of potassium hydroxide. Obviously I will start again, but is there anything to do with my dry crumbly attempt other than bin it?
Thankyou!

 

[AliOop]

If you want to post the recipe that you used, we might be able to help you rebatch it.

 

[slapdash soap maker]

If you want to post the recipe that you used, we might be able to help you rebatch it.

Hi I used: 489g olive oil (70%) 140g castor oil (20%) 70g coconut oil (10%)
597g distilled or demineralised water and 149g sodium hydroxide .... instead of potassium!!! thank you so much for taking the time to help.

 

[DeeAnna]

DON'T use this soap for washing. Also be sure to wear gloves to handle it.

The soap has a huge lye excess due to using NaOH rather than KOH.

Theoretically you could recalculate the weight of additional fat needed to react with the excess NaOH, and then cook the soap with the extra fat to saponify it. Basically it would be a combination of the rebatch and hot process methods.

Not sure I'd bother though. Wrap it well and discard in your household trash.

 

[slapdash soap maker]

DON'T use this soap for washing. Also be sure to wear gloves to handle it.

The soap has a huge lye excess due to using NaOH rather than KOH.

Theoretically you could recalculate the weight of additional fat needed to react with the excess NaOH, and then cook the soap with the extra fat to saponify it. Basically it would be a combination of the rebatch and hot process methods.

Not sure I'd bother though. Wrap it well and discard in your household trash.

thank you! I think I am going to put this down to a learning experience and try again tomorrow.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Not sure I'd bother though. Wrap it well and discard in your household trash.

@DeeAnna -- Just teasing! I think i figured out a way this batch can be saved by adding 300g coconut oil. Here's what I would do:

Your recipe:

490g olive oil (70%)
140g castor oil (20%)
70g coconut oil (10%)
700g TOTAL OILS

597g water
149g sodium hydroxide

Figure the correct amount of NaOH to determine excess amounts of water and NaOH in the batch:

597g - 197g water = 400g excess water
149g - 97g NaOH = 52g excess NaOH

300g coconut oil will use up 55g excess NaOH and 112g excess water. You will still have 288g excess water.

This can be reduced by adding 300g melted coconut oil to the current "watery" batch. Cook the batch the old fashioned way on the range top or in a big enough crock pot until the batch weight is reduced to

1000g X a factor of 1.37 = 1370g finished soap.

0% SF
Lye Concentration = 33%
Sat: Unsat Ratio = 40:60

RESULTS
SOAP BAR QUALITY = INS Value 160 (So-called “perfect soap”)
The rest of the values indicate a hard soap with high lather/ cleansing and high conditioning values that may take longer than average to cure, but when it does, it should be just fine.

Screen Shot of finished soap -- Looks good to me!

 

[AliOop]

DeeAnna is right, this would be quite a chore to rebatch. Given that your oil combo was originally designed for LS, it's hard to come up with a balanced recipe that doesn't require you to add lots of different oils, AND more lye solution. However, if you want to try to fix it, here is my suggestion:

1. Very carefully, wearing gloves and eye protection, pulverize the soap mass (mess?) in a blender or food processor.
2. Add the pulverized bits into a large crockpot, or stainless stock pot on the stove.
3. Add some warm sugar water, warm yogurt, or your choice of warm milk (dairy, coconut, oat, etc.). to loosen it up a bit. You want it mashable but not soaking wet.
4. Heat on low, stirring until everything is melted. You can add more liquid a Tbsp at a time if needed.
5. Add 200g coconut oil, and 201g of palm oil (or lard - they have the same SAP value).
6. Stick blend everything together as best as you can. If the mixture is still very thick, add a bit more sugar water and use a strong spatula to stir it all up.
7. Cover and cook it for 20-40 minutes, to the vaseline stage.
8. Follow regular HP procedures of watching carefully, keeping it covered as much as possible, stirring down expansions, and molding before it gets too dry. Depending on much liquid you added, it may take a few hours or a few days to be firm enough to unmold and cut.

I've attached a screenshot of the total recipe, which includes the amounts of oils you used in the original recipe, so you can see where I got the numbers. With over 20% CO, more than 10% castor, and 8% superfat, this wouldn't be a soap recipe I would create from the get-go. But if you'd rather not throw everything out, this should help you end up with usable bar soap.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

it's hard to come up with a balanced recipe that doesn't require you to add lots of different oils, AND more lye solution.

I agree with what @DeeAnna wrote here:

The soap has a huge lye excess due to using NaOH rather than KOH.

Theoretically you could recalculate the weight of additional fat needed to react with the excess NaOH, and then cook the soap with the extra fat to saponify it. Basically it would be a combination of the rebatch and hot process methods.

I think this batch can be saved.

Unless I'm missing something, the solution I formulated is a balanced recipe using a single fat instead of "lots of different oils". NO extra lye solution needed.

On another note, I just re-read this bit:

is there anything to do with my dry crumbly attempt other than bin it?

@slapdash soap maker If your soap is "dry and crumbly" I'm wondering if perhaps you cooked it long enough to get most of the excess water out of it? If so, you might need to replace some of the water... just to make it easier to work with.

700g X a factor of 1.37 = 959g finished soap (approx.)

Weigh the soap. Add enough water to reach 959g if needed. Then add the extra coconut oil. That should do it. Just trust your own judgment based on your experience making hard bars.

HTH AND GOOD LUCK!

 

[slapdash soap maker]

View attachment 68265

@DeeAnna -- Just teasing! I think i figured out a way this batch can be saved by adding 300g coconut oil. Here's what I would do:

Your recipe:

490g olive oil (70%)
140g castor oil (20%)
70g coconut oil (10%)
700g TOTAL OILS

597g water
149g sodium hydroxide

Figure the correct amount of NaOH to determine excess amounts of water and NaOH in the batch:

597g - 197g water = 400g excess water
149g - 97g NaOH = 52g excess NaOH

300g coconut oil will use up 55g excess NaOH and 112g excess water. You will still have 288g excess water.

This can be reduced by adding 300g melted coconut oil to the current "watery" batch. Cook the batch the old fashioned way on the range top or in a big enough crock pot until the batch weight is reduced to

1000g X a factor of 1.37 = 1370g finished soap.

0% SF
Lye Concentration = 33%
Sat: Unsat Ratio = 40:60

RESULTS
SOAP BAR QUALITY = INS Value 160 (So-called “perfect soap”)
The rest of the values indicate a hard soap with high lather/ cleansing and high conditioning values that may take longer than average to cure, but when it does, it should be just fine.

Screen Shot of finished soap -- Looks good to me!
View attachment 68266

amazing. thank you so much. will give that a go! (and doing the LS as well today with my glasses on!!)

I agree with what @DeeAnna wrote here:

I think this batch can be saved.

Unless I'm missing something, the solution I formulated is a balanced recipe using a single fat instead of "lots of different oils". NO extra lye solution needed.

On another note, I just re-read this bit:

@slapdash soap maker If your soap is "dry and crumbly" I'm wondering if perhaps you cooked it long enough to get most of the excess water out of it? If so, you might need to replace some of the water... just to make it easier to work with.

700g X a factor of 1.37 = 959g finished soap (approx.)

Weigh the soap. Add enough water to reach 959g if needed. Then add the extra coconut oil. That should do it. Just trust your own judgment based on your experience making hard bars.

HTH AND GOOD LUCK!

thank you. everyone on this site is so generous!

DeeAnna is right, this would be quite a chore to rebatch. Given that your oil combo was originally designed for LS, it's hard to come up with a balanced recipe that doesn't require you to add lots of different oils, AND more lye solution. However, if you want to try to fix it, here is my suggestion:

1. Very carefully, wearing gloves and eye protection, pulverize the soap mass (mess?) in a blender or food processor.
2. Add the pulverized bits into a large crockpot, or stainless stock pot on the stove.
3. Add some warm sugar water, warm yogurt, or your choice of warm milk (dairy, coconut, oat, etc.). to loosen it up a bit. You want it mashable but not soaking wet.
4. Heat on low, stirring until everything is melted. You can add more liquid a Tbsp at a time if needed.
5. Add 200g coconut oil, and 201g of palm oil (or lard - they have the same SAP value).
6. Stick blend everything together as best as you can. If the mixture is still very thick, add a bit more sugar water and use a strong spatula to stir it all up.
7. Cover and cook it for 20-40 minutes, to the vaseline stage.
8. Follow regular HP procedures of watching carefully, keeping it covered as much as possible, stirring down expansions, and molding before it gets too dry. Depending on much liquid you added, it may take a few hours or a few days to be firm enough to unmold and cut.

I've attached a screenshot of the total recipe, which includes the amounts of oils you used in the original recipe, so you can see where I got the numbers. With over 20% CO, more than 10% castor, and 8% superfat, this wouldn't be a soap recipe I would create from the get-go. But if you'd rather not throw everything out, this should help you end up with usable bar soap.


View attachment 68268

Thank you. I'm going to try Deanne's recipe. No one in my family will touch the soap if it has animal fat or palm oil in it!

 

[Zany_in_CO]

will give that a go!

Good for you! This thread may help:

OVEN REBATCH OR CROCKPOT REBATCH

(and doing the LS as well today with my glasses on!!)

Haha. I made that same mistake early in my LS career. The neat thing about it is that I never made that particular mistake again! Once is enough!

Just a head's up -- LS with a high % of olive oil takes a lot longer to process than LS with a high % of coconut oil. Bumping your coconut oil up to 50/50 olive/coconut plus the 10% castor will take less time to cook, will have oodles of lather and almost shampoo-like viscosity if you dilute it at 40% soap to 60% water.

NOTE: Most of my recipes have 50% coconut or PKO plus liquid oils of choice. A high % of coconut in LS is NOT drying or stripping at all.

I noticed that your water to lye ratio to make the lye solution isn't correct for LS. Catherine Failor, who wrote the "bible" on LS in 2,000, used 3:1 water to KOH. Here's how to set up the calculator:

Unless you have a better source, you may want to review this excellent tutorial with pictures so you know what to expect. As a coincidence, she uses a recipe similar to yours and points out the problems when using a high % of olive oil:

CREATE LIQUID SOAPS & SHAMPOO

HAPPY SOAPING!

 

[AliOop]

Thank you. I'm going to try Deanne's recipe. No one in my family will touch the soap if it has animal fat or palm oil in it!

Sure, give it a go - although I think you meant Zany's recipe, yes? Just be aware that this high CO soap with a 0% SF will be very, very cleansing (which means drying or stripping) on your skin. If you decide to go with that recipe, I recommend upping the superfat significantly.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Just be aware that this high CO soap with a 0% SF will be very, very cleansing (which means drying or stripping) on your skin.

Hmm. While this may be true for you, in my experience, this just isn't true at all. Quite the opposite.

I have dry, sensitive, and lately, "mature" skin so I have to be careful with what I use. It's the reason I learned to make my own bath & body products.

For example, I've been making 100% Coconut Oil Laundry Soap for years. It does a great job of cleaning when paired with OxyClean during the wash cycle plus adding white vinegar to the rinse cycle.

I sometimes use my laundry LS in a foamer at the sink. I don't experience what you describe at all. Quite the opposite. I get a gentle wash that rinses off clean as a whistle with no soapy residue. I don't even need to use hand lotion after using it. But that just me and my experience. YMMV

HTH (Hope This is Helpful) not only to you @AliOop but to others who may be following this thread.

 

[AliOop]

Apparently your personal experience differs from the great majority of soapers here on SMF and in other groups who report that high CO, combined with low SF, is very stripping and drying in a bar soap used on the skin (which is what both of our recommended recipes are discussing - not liquid soap or laundry soap).

In fact, you are the only person of whom I am aware who says otherwise. Thus, I find your recommendation to be very irresponsible, rather than helpful.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Oh @AliOop I am so sorry! I didn't mean to offend. Not at all. Of course, you are correct -- high coconut can be "very stripping and drying in a bar soap used on the skin" to some folks. I almost mentioned that in my post but didn't because I thought it was obvious I was speaking of LS.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

 

[AliOop]

Then perhaps you should revise your recommendation to the OP, since your recommended recipe is a bar soap with 37% CO and 0%SF.

 

[Susie]

OP, very seldom do I say to throw any soap away, but sometimes things are just not worth the effort to fix. If you have unlimited time and energy to spend on fixing this, go for it. I do not.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Then perhaps you should revise your recommendation to the OP, since your recommended recipe is a bar soap with 37% CO and 0%SF.

When @DeeAnna wrote that a rebatch could work "in theory" that's what spurred me on to look for a remedy. It took me all of 2 minutes to choose an additional 300 grams of coconut oil to use up the excess lye.

When I look at the printout of how the formula is nicely balanced I expect the high Conditioning Value of the olive & castor to ameliorate the "drying" effect of the high % coconut oil.

Just to be clear, the OP will simply be adding 300 grams of coconut oil to the soap she already made. She will NOT be adding lye solution.

The OP described the batch as "dry & crumbly". That's my main concern. We want enough water to make the old soap fluid enough so it plays nicely with the additional coconut oil. But we don't want too much water!

To determine the max amount of water needed to saponify 300 grams of coconut oil is 111 grams -- plenty to absorb the 52 grams of excess lye:

 

[Zany_in_CO]

sometimes things are just not worth the effort to fix. If you have unlimited time and energy to spend on fixing this, go for it.

This batch can be saved!

All it takes is time and PATIENCE along with the self-confidence for the OP to try a new technique — one that served me well in the early days of my soap making career and others as well today.

It’s a good thing!

The gratings are melted first using the OVEN REBATCH method linked above. Since sustained heat will be applied, adding 111 grams max of water to the "dry & crumbly" old soap should hydrate it just enough. I’m concerned about ending up with too much water in the final batch but It’s more important to get the old soap fluid enough to incorporate the additional coconut oil.

It should only take an hour or so to melt. When completely molten at the end of the hour, add the melted coconut oil while hot. Stir to mix. Put the pot back in the oven for twenty minutes or so to incorporate the new into the old.

Give it a good stir for one full minute and pour into a mold.

You can add fragrance to the coconut oil before combining it with the shreds if you wish.

ETA: 14% castor oil in the final batch is cause for concern. It may make the bars feel sticky. I have no experience with that and, therefore no remedy. FYI: 5% castor is the recommended use rate. Hopefully, it won't be a problem once the rebatch is fully cured and ready to use.