Looking for advices

[IrishLass]

Iwannasoap- unfortunately, Douter 2 has not been on the forum since December of 2016 (not even to lurk), and will therefore not be able to benefit from your above post addressed to them today.

You do, however, bring up a good point that a high cleansing value on SoapCalc doesn't necessarily mean that a soap will be drying to a person....

For example, the 2 main formulas that I make the majority amount of time have cleansing values of 19 and 21 respectively, but they work quite well and are non-drying to me and my small pond of peeps (I don't sell- my peeps are my family, friends and myself).......but that's not to say that my formulas will be non-drying across the board to everyone, because everyone's individual skin-types are different. For some, lots of coconut works great, but for others- not so much. For some, lots of lard works great, but for others like you yourself found out- not so much, etc... The one making the soap always needs to make sure and test to see what kind of formulas work best for their own individual skin-needs or likes/dislikes, not to mention the needs and likes/dislikes of their chosen recipients.

Case in point- I figure I must've spent a couple of years making and then testing several different formulas out on my family, friends and myself before I settled upon what became my two main formulas (one all-veggie formula, and the other made with lard/tallow). The reason they became my 2 main formulas was because, unlike all of my other 'hit or miss' formulas that came before- ie., some found certain of them to be great, but others found them to be either "too drying", or "not bubbly enough", or "too goopy", or "too soft", etc.....- they were the first two that were finally unanimously agreeable to all my peeps.

Moral of the story- always test to see what works best for you and yours.


IrishLass

 

[jcandleattic]

I agree. My main recipe is high in CO and in blind usage tests by soapmakers, and civilians alike, they could not tell that the there was a high % of CO in there.

In fact, one of the soapers who INSISTED that she could not use any bar of soap with CO in a % higher than 5%, said there must not be any CO in my bar at all because it was so mild, and she loved it.

Once I told her there was over 20% in there, she basically called me a liar and stopped communicating with me. LOL

Soapcalc numbers mean nothing to me, and I stopped paying any attention to them years ago, when formulating a new recipe. Of course, I rarely formulate anything new at this stage of my soaping career. Sometimes as experiments in very low batches, but it is rare, especially since I masterbatch at 200+lbs at a time.

 

[iwannasoap]

Thanks for your opinion. I appreciate it. I do test however, I put soap in the bathroom where I work and tell them all to tell me any complaints about it. I only want to hear the complaints so I can improve it. My wife and I have been at it for 2 years now and so far I'm only hearing "Put back this bar."" I like the last one", Basically I'm hearing nothing but requests because all of them are good. Its just the certain fragrances they like and let me know.
The most difficult thing for me so far was that it took me a year just to learn correctly the lye and water amount and how to calculate the lye versus the oils. I really don't need a calculator now. If I do use it its to see the acid amounts and the claims for cleaning and conditioning.
Getting back to taking a year to get it right,
The terms " Full water" and "discounted water" should be banned from all soapers forums because that really messed me up!
Full water implies there is a max amount - Little did I know there isn't a max amount but if there was is that when you start discounting. And! Discounted from What?
To me, discounted water is going negative past zero on the number line and in soaping that zero mark begins at a 50 50 lye and water solution and that is one thing I don't go past. I might add a little water and make it 476ppt (50 oz loaf would be 16 additional grams of water to make it 476ppt) but it really puzzled me from the beginning the terms full water and discounted water.
But we have gone from confusion to having 13 recipes on my spreadsheet and I can change any amount at anytime to any size loaf while at the same time calculate cost and do it quicker then a lye calculator. I've read some of the posts and a few have this problem.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Part of that is your take on the terminology. Discounted prices, for example, don't mean negative prices, do they? If so, I'll come to the sales where you live and get paid to take something away!

They certainly aren't overly helpful once you get away from water as % of oils, though (which should be sooner rather than later). But for beginners using that method and various recipes where more or less water can be helpful, it's usually a good starting point

 

[Susie]

Thanks for your opinion. I appreciate it. I do test however, I put soap in the bathroom where I work and tell them all to tell me any complaints about it. I only want to hear the complaints so I can improve it. My wife and I have been at it for 2 years now and so far I'm only hearing "Put back this bar."" I like the last one", Basically I'm hearing nothing but requests because all of them are good. Its just the certain fragrances they like and let me know.
The most difficult thing for me so far was that it took me a year just to learn correctly the lye and water amount and how to calculate the lye versus the oils. I really don't need a calculator now. If I do use it its to see the acid amounts and the claims for cleaning and conditioning.
Getting back to taking a year to get it right,
The terms " Full water" and "discounted water" should be banned from all soapers forums because that really messed me up!
Full water implies there is a max amount - Little did I know there isn't a max amount but if there was is that when you start discounting. And! Discounted from What?
To me, discounted water is going negative past zero on the number line and in soaping that zero mark begins at a 50 50 lye and water solution and that is one thing I don't go past. I might add a little water and make it 476ppt (50 oz loaf would be 16 additional grams of water to make it 476ppt) but it really puzzled me from the beginning the terms full water and discounted water.
But we have gone from confusion to having 13 recipes on my spreadsheet and I can change any amount at anytime to any size loaf while at the same time calculate cost and do it quicker then a lye calculator. I've read some of the posts and a few have this problem.

Your lack of understanding of proper soaping terminology does not make the terminology any less correct. The onus to understand the terminology rests on the reader. You should not have made any soap without understanding the terminology.

And you saying this, "I really don't need a calculator now. If I do use it its to see the acid amounts and the claims for cleaning and conditioning.", tells me that you still do not know what you are doing, or you lack the correct terminology to describe what you are actually doing.

 

[Galaxy]

Thanks for your opinion. <snip>

Different oils require a different amount of lye to turn them into soap. You can't just say "well olive oil takes 0.1353g lye to saponify 1g of oil, so coconut oil is probably close (it's not, 0.1910)."

Please use a lye calculator before making every batch. It takes 30 seconds. It's not a game - if you screw it up, your soap will hurt someone.

 

[iwannasoap]

Your lack of understanding of proper soaping terminology does not make the terminology any less correct. The onus to understand the terminology rests on the reader. You should not have made any soap without understanding the terminology.

And you saying this, "I really don't need a calculator now. If I do use it its to see the acid amounts and the claims for cleaning and conditioning.", tells me that you still do not know what you are doing, or you lack the correct terminology to describe what you are actually doing.

I want to clarify myself. I made my own. I do not need to get on line and do it. What I see on a spreadsheet is much faster and more precise in more ways that you can see on a website. Now that I'm done with it, I can create more soap in the same size loaf which lasts longer. What I know now, takes some people years to realize using a soap calculator. It only took me 2 minutes of seeing on a spreadsheet. Now that I know what I know, I'm just occupying my time correcting mistakes, and proving them wrong, and most importantly learning. I have much to learn mainly in the design area and I'm not done yet!

Different oils require a different amount of lye to turn them into soap. You can't just say "well olive oil takes 0.1353g lye to saponify 1g of oil, so coconut oil is probably close (it's not, 0.1910)."

Please use a lye calculator before making every batch. It takes 30 seconds. It's not a game - if you screw it up, your soap will hurt someone.

I made my own on a spreadsheet and I can work it out on paper if I want to. I can calculate any size, any amount of oils, any percentage, and any oil much faster then a website since I know the SAP values. It also tells me that the more water you use in making soap, the less oil and lye you use to turn into soap. It is very accurate and I don't have near the problems I use to especially with soap freezing up on me.

Thanks for your concern though. I actually make very good soap. It is in the design department that could use some work. My best 2 loafs right off the bat I can think of is one that I made look like wood (cedar wood EO) and one that looked like the sky the day of the eclipse recently. It actually had the sun peeking out of the clouds with a blue background. I called it Picasso's eclipse.
I do have pics that I might post.

Part of that is your take on the terminology. Discounted prices, for example, don't mean negative prices, do they? If so, I'll come to the sales where you live and get paid to take something away!

They certainly aren't overly helpful once you get away from water as % of oils, though (which should be sooner rather than later). But for beginners using that method and various recipes where more or less water can be helpful, it's usually a good starting point

I hate to tell you this but discounted prices DOES mean negative numbers.
LOL.
Look at this way becasue this is actually what is happening when you discount
Original price: $5
Discounted: -$1.25
Your used to seeing it like this (5-1.25=3.75)
But what you are actually doing is this
(+5)(-1.25)= 3.75
The discounted number IS negative!
lol

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

But as you quoted me - discounted prices do not mean negative PRICES, do they? Please don't simply answer a question by changing a word in order to suit your answer.

 

[MorpheusPA]

In my case, I zapped together a VB.NET program to manage oils, standard recipes (I really only have six), colorants, additives, and batches. It auto-generates labels since I always list ingredients just in case somebody's allergic to something.

OK, "zapped" is a misnomer, I'm still doing alpha debugging...

It's no Soapmaker 3, but it only cost me time instead of $90, and I'm a hobbyist, not selling.

Regardless of where you're getting your recipe, it's simply important that you do have one.

Keep in mind that most people, asked for criticism, simply won't. My mother refuses to criticize any bar of soap unless I push. 'It's fantastic!' 'So you liked that scent and lather?' 'Well...' I mostly never hear any feedback from anybody but my incredibly negative cousin, who hates anybody and everything in contact with her.

As far as the terminology...learn it and don't worry about your personal interpretations. In any hobby or profession, terminology will exist that was grandfathered in, created and later applied to a not-quite-so-applicable case, or simply exists the way it is for no good reason. It merely exists and has to be learned.

[quote="iwannasoap](+5)(-1.25)= 3.75[/quote]

The discounted number is positive; it's +3.75. The discount, which is removed from the full price (5) number can be thought of as the addition of a negative number, or as the subtraction of a positive number. It's really very relative, but fortunately, addition is commutative and we don't have to concern ourselves very much if we phrase it that way.

 

[cerelife]

8 pages of posts...
Maybe I'm missing something or maybe I just have really thick skin?
The first couple of years that I belonged to this forum there was a moderator (who is no longer here for whatever reason) whom I considered my own personal 'Regina George' - "Mean Girls" reference for anyone who hasn't seen the movie. I often felt personally victimized by her; and once she had something negative to say, others seemed to feel free to jump on the bandwagon with their own negative comments (many times not even reading my original post to see what I was actually asking about!)
Was it hurtful? Well sure, of course it was. And some of it was unjust - as in someone posting: "I need you to stop selling your soap NOW until you have more than 6 months experience!" UMMMM, if she had actually read my original post she would have seen that I hadn't sold one single bar of soap to date and wasn't intending to anytime soon, but she just had to get her 2 cents in since the moderator came down hard on me.
But I'm still here. This is a great forum and I'm proud to be a member. Most of the people here are incredibly helpful, and I hope that I occasionally post helpful replies of my own.
Will you get your feelings hurt in this forum? Maybe...but if you truly want to grow and learn as a soapmaker, it's totally worth it

 

[SherylG]

Well, I thought long and hard about posting this but I have to speak up in the hopes that it will be helpful.

I belong to a lot of forums on various subjects on the net. I am new to this forum but I have read through a lot of it. I have rarely encountered such often confrontational, bossy, pushy and actually rude posts as I have seen here. However, I'm sure it's just due to some people not having the experience of working with the public and developing their communication and people skills. I don't think the posters could possibly mean for their posts to sound the way they do. It is often hard to understand a person's tone when it's just writing on the 'net. But many people don't realize this and take a post the wrong way.

I think everyone needs to realize that each poster here is just one insignificant voice out of millions on the 'net. A person posting on a forum can't control anyone, give them orders to obey, tell them what to do...so just chill. Why let some poster on a forum on the net upset you or make you angry? Why let someone ruin your day and mood, someone who probably even lives in another country, that you will likely never in your life come in contact with, has absolutely no knowledge of who you are and no right to tell you what to do with your soap, time or life whatsoever. Why does it matter so much what anyone else does?

Realize that some people just have to learn things the hard way and other people have to learn that there is nothing you can do about it. Posting on a forum here is not going to change what another poster chooses to do with their soap. No poster here can control another person, give them orders, tell them what to do and expect obedience at all. Posters who do that are just upsetting themselves.

I would laugh out loud at someone who said to me on a forum that they needed me to stop what I'm doing right now! lol! That's just nonsense. What on Earth would make that person think she could tell me what to do? lol. She's just a voice among millions on the 'net, possibly even in another country with no authority in my home whatsoever.

So...why get annoyed with her for it? I would just laugh at anyone giving me an order like they expected it to be obeyed. lol. If I ask a question here and get a positive and direct answer to my question in simple terms from a helpful person, I'm happy. I just ignore anything else. I'm here to discuss soap making. That's what this forum is for and you will notice that my posts, except for this one, are positive and helpful, at least that's what I aim for. You will also notice that I just ignore anything else.

Now for some helpful advice. I used to work at the YMCA and this is what was drilled into us there: There is a positive way to say anything. We were strongly discouraged from saying things like..."Don't, Stop" etc. Instead of saying "Don't run", say "Please walk". Instead of saying "Don't dive there!", say "Please dive in the deep end only." Yes, even with lives at stake! It does get to be a habit of speaking after awhile. A good one. It's just a general guide. I realize that you can't do that all the time.

My motto on all my forums of various subject is this: Be positive and helpful or just don't post. If someone gets absolutely no response to a post, they will get the point. Also, as you may notice in the above paragraphs. I rarely said "You". My comments were directed to the general posters here. Directing a comment to a specific person or labeling someone with an adjective of any kind can be considered rude and should be avoided. If it's not actually helping someone, don't say it.

I will probably get some negative responses to this but you know what? lol. I don't care and I will continue to post here and read here and enjoy discussing the making of soap. I will just ignore anything else.


"I don't care what anyone else thinks...except cats. I want cats to like me. "

 

[SaltedFig]

I think there were only a couple of pages from today (it's a bit older, most of this thread).

Hey Sheryl, I got taught the same thing (on positives)! (Obviously I don't apply it as well as I should sometimes)

This example was one was given as a classic pool-side example, "remember to walk". Apparently the brain absorbs the words without the negative or positive ... so if the message is negative it goes in as a positive ... the keywords are stored somehow. The poolside example is ... If the words "Don't run" are used, running is remembered, whereas "Walk please", reinforces the memory of walking, and walking gets associated with being at the pool.

 

[SoapTrey]

This has really been an enlightening thread to say the least. This forum has probably lost so many potentially excellent members because they were simply driven off by aggressive, negative responses... whether well intended or not.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

The forum has also probably lost a lot of people who would bring nothing of value to the community, too.

 

[SoapTrey]

The forum has also probably lost a lot of people who would bring nothing of value to the community, too.

Well you'll never know will you? While I agree with the premise of waiting and learning and knowing how to craft really good soap before selling, lye safety, understanding the applicable laws and such, liability insurance, etc. I personally don't think it's good for the forum to simply jump all over people who come here for the first time, sign up and ask what they deem a legitimate question from their perspective. I simply think there should be a bit more understanding from the 'pros' and instead of coming across negative and aggressive... maybe try being a bit nicer and not so blunt at first. There's plenty of time to be blunt. Being an internet forum tone is lost in translation, which someone who has never been here before will take the tone as negative.

I've personally witnessed several new members come here and be subjected to this, only to immediately leave and not come back. Is that what you want? Don't you want to build the community with people who enjoy coming here to learn?

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

I do. And the community is growing. Could it grow more quickly? Maybe, but then would it risk changing too much in how the community itself works? To the extent that what it was is gone? You see it happen now and then - a certain new member comes and lashes out, so some of the regular posters stop posting. Does this new member fill that void of giving that community feel and (more importantly) soaping knowledge? Very rarely, if ever.

See, I don't want the membership list to grow just for the sake of it. I don't really take it on my shoulders if someone stops posting for whatever reason, unless I am personally in breach of the forum rules, which I have never been informed of. Because if this community itself works a certain way, for better or worse, and someone doesn't like that way, then would they be a good addition to that community?

 

[SudsanSoaps]

What I've noticed on here and maybe this isn't the place for it but... somebody asks a question or says something and the next 5-10 posts, it seems like, say the same thing. It was extremely irritating for me at first but I've come to ignore it. Seems to me like it could drive people away but idk.

That is my opinion.

 

[artemis]

What I've noticed on here and maybe this isn't the place for it but... somebody asks a question or says something and the next 5-10 posts, it seems like, say the same thing. It was extremely irritating for me at first but I've come to ignore it. Seems to me like it could drive people away but idk.

That is my opinion.

Ya, sometimes multiple people start responding at the same time.

I have noticed that there are people who read the original post in a thread and post a heated response without checking the rest of the conversation to see if the issue has already been discussed thoroughly. Or, read only the last post or read until their hot button issue comes up...

 

[SoapTrey]

I do. And the community is growing. Could it grow more quickly? Maybe, but then would it risk changing too much in how the community itself works? To the extent that what it was is gone? You see it happen now and then - a certain new member comes and lashes out, so some of the regular posters stop posting. Does this new member fill that void of giving that community feel and (more importantly) soaping knowledge? Very rarely, if ever.

See, I don't want the membership list to grow just for the sake of it. I don't really take it on my shoulders if someone stops posting for whatever reason, unless I am personally in breach of the forum rules, which I have never been informed of. Because if this community itself works a certain way, for better or worse, and someone doesn't like that way, then would they be a good addition to that community?

I don't believe your missing my point, which is being nice to brand new users who are selling without knowing what they are doing and before we can assess what their true agenda is. I see a couple of others who seem to have this attitude as well. My bigger question would be (and it's rhetorical, because it seems to be tolerated), does the rest of the community feel the same?

Edit: This is not meant as personal attack on anyone. I'm just stating what I've observed, it's your rules.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

As you're replying to thread where many people did just that, it would seem so. Even the forum guideline information threads say that, if you mention that you sell as a new soaper, don't be surprised to hear people say it's a bad idea.

I don't agree that a pile-on (pig-pile, I think it's called in the US) is helpful all the time, but also if just one person said "I don't think you should be selling" and no one else did because it was already there, wouldn't that then suggest that only this one member thinks that the newbie shouldn't be selling?