Looking for advices

[Relle]

Thank you for letting us know. We know when someone has been online and we still see you if you are hiding.

So here's what I've come up with for those of you that spend time and reply to these people. If you see that one of Admin/Mods puts up this -
:headbanging:


with no other comment, that means it's a waste of your time. You can choose to reply if you wish or not, but it's usually one we have found will not listen.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

So I won't be getting the name of the shop? [emoji56]

 

[CaraBou]

I'd just like to know the name of the country and the size of the city and shop. I think there can be very different realities from what many of us experience from our places in the world. I'm not excusing it, instead just trying to understand it and deal with it more humanely and effectively.

 

[Susie]

I'd just like to know the name of the country and the size of the city and shop. I think there can be very different realities from what many of us experience from our places in the world. I'm not excusing it, instead just trying to understand it and deal with it more humanely and effectively.

Before I take what you said in the worst possible way, could you please explain what you mean by the last sentence? I understand that this could be a tiny little town where resources are limited, and enforcement of regulations is unlikely. However, I am really trying to find an excuse for someone risking their mother's way of making a living without any success.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Quite - stealing a loaf of bread to feed a hungry family is one thing, but illegally selling cosmetics in the EU would be stretching the boundaries of which crimes one can commit when money is tight

 

[CaraBou]

Nevermind. Just get the noose out in case he comes back.

 

[lenarenee]

Carabou, I think I understand a little of where you 're coming from.

Perhaps this person was simply ignorant. Or very young. Very isolated, therefore inexperienced with the ways of the world. Desperate to help bring in income.

Or maybe they were arrogant. Thoughtless. Uncaring.

Don't know.

But I'm wondering if we missed a chance here. Some of us came on rather strong. (well, I know we weren't rude, but a newcomer....?)

Is there a better way of educating people here? Of writing our disapproval in a "tone" that can even get an arrogant, thoughtless, uncaring person to think?

I don't know about you, but when someone starts talking to me with any hint of condescension, my stubborn gets up and my ears turn off.

 

[Steve85569]

I'd just like to know the name of the country and the size of the city and shop. I think there can be very different realities from what many of us experience from our places in the world. I'm not excusing it, instead just trying to understand it and deal with it more humanely and effectively.

There is the chance - however small - that this person has been ignorant of any of the right things to do and is not posting now because they are ashamed of their behavior.

The argumentative attitude may have been caused by the huge amount of misinformation that is available on the internet. It is easy to forget what a jewel this sight is.

Then again the OP has disappeared so they may in fact be the type of individual that this sight tries to correct and reform.

JMHO,
Steve

lenarenee types faster than I do. Sorry about the double post.

 

[Hazel]

I'd just like to know the name of the country and the size of the city and shop. I think there can be very different realities from what many of us experience from our places in the world. I'm not excusing it, instead just trying to understand it and deal with it more humanely and effectively.

I'm not going to name the city or country but I will say the IP comes up as a tourist town (beaches, sailing and scuba diving) in Europe.

I agree we don't know this person's circumstances and I can empathize with someone who really needs to bring in more money. It's also difficult to express the importance of testing with someone online. You can have the best of intentions but the person still may perceive it as antagonistic. The only thing I can think of is people not post when they see someone has already replied. If it's just limited to one person giving advice; then it won't come across as being ganged up on.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

And there is an indicator of someone who isn't willing to learn - coming to a site full of people who know what this person needs to know but refusing all good information. If they then can't take the harshness that follows, it is their loss - they missed a chance. They cannot claim ignorance as people had cleared that up. But they can claim pride and stubbornness at the very least, as they refused the good advice and haven't replied at all. Personally, I think we dodged a bullet.

 

[topofmurrayhill]

And there is an indicator of someone who isn't willing to learn - coming to a site full of people who know what this person needs to know but refusing all good information. If they then can't take the harshness that follows, it is their loss - they missed a chance. They cannot claim ignorance as people had cleared that up. But they can claim pride and stubbornness at the very least, as they refused the good advice and haven't replied at all. Personally, I think we dodged a bullet.

Nice spin. But we don't know how willing he would have been to learn if he were allowed to hang out here. We don't know this person at all. These people are judged and dispatched in short order. Frankly I think it's disgraceful. How many words have been churned out here? The are 30 posts, only 2 of which are from the OP, including the original question, which I assume was asked in good faith, and one short response.

He wasn't "getting it" fast enough for peoples' liking, but he wasn't hostile. He was getting ganged up on. Doesn't take much analysis to explain why he's gone. It's one of those opportunities where everyone whips out their righteous indignation as if it's going to fix the world. If we dodged a bullet, whatever that means, the OP sure didn't.

We had a newbie here maybe 3 months back, really nice and eager to learn, very intelligent too. Would have been a good contributor. Didn't say or do a damned thing wrong, except one or two of the same people holding the bullhorn in this thread treated her badly for no reason I could discern, and by the time they were through she left forever. I'm sure nobody noticed or cared. I got a thank you PM and she said she wouldn't be back because this wasn't the right place for her to learn. I went over all the threads again, and she was justified in leaving.

I remember someone being righteously hounded here who finally in frustration tried to explain her intentions and why the criticism wasn't warranted, making fair points in the process. Overnight her defense was removed, overly belligerent posts direct towards her were edited, and what remained just made her look bad. That encouraged a few more people to get their last licks in, and she never came back.

I've seen this to some extent before, but not usually as bad as here and not with moderator participation. I for one get where CaraBou is coming from.

 

[Susie]

CaraBou, I will accept my share of the lashing for being rude. But, in order for me to not repeat the error, please help me understand where to draw the line. I was trying to be helpful in the long post. I tried to explain exactly what was wrong with the recipe and process. Is this too much information/critique for a new poster? Should I stop at one point? I know that saying that every part of what someone is doing is wrong can be overwhelming and make someone defensive.

I hesitated to post that, but they needed to know how to correct it. If it were me doing everything incorrectly, I would want all the information at once so I could read each part and process it over a few hours. That is how I function. So, I was trying to treat them like I would want to be treated.

However, I am willing to learn a new way, as I understand that other people need information presented in a different way. I just need you to let me know how to not repeat bad behavior.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

It's not spinning - he hasn't been banned or anything like that. He can reply. It's his choice if he doesn't.

People don't have to post help for those who ask a question. No one paid to do so. Questions are asked here because it is taken that those who post an answer are helping the asker. This is actually very nice of those who do the answering. It's free! When that time taken to help is ignored* then why should people a) be okay about that and b) keep quiet about their feelings on the matter?

Every forum has a general tone, which is why there are many forums on each subject. Some people love the dish, others don't. There are other soaping forums, too, and some people frequent many and some stick to just one. If the tone of the dish doesn't work for someone, they can try another. Same as any forum.

Should many of the regular contributors change? Will they want to, or will they leave? Will these newbies fill the gaps?

* if there was misunderstanding, the op didn't actually indicate that in anyway. There was no asking for clarification or explanation, simply ignoring the advice. Coupled with a direct promise to continue to break the law on selling soap, not to mention that the soap itself was poor quality, beggars belief.

 

[topofmurrayhill]

It's not spinning - he hasn't been banned or anything like that. He can reply. It's his choice if he doesn't.

People don't have to post help for those who ask a question. No one paid to do so. Questions are asked here because it is taken that those who post an answer are helping the asker. This is actually very nice of those who do the answering. It's free! When that time taken to help is ignored* then why should people a) be okay about that and b) keep quiet about their feelings on the matter?

Every forum has a general tone, which is why there are many forums on each subject. Some people love the dish, others don't. There are other soaping forums, too, and some people frequent many and some stick to just one. If the tone of the dish doesn't work for someone, they can try another. Same as any forum.

Should many of the regular contributors change? Will they want to, or will they leave? Will these newbies fill the gaps?

* if there was misunderstanding, the op didn't actually indicate that in anyway. There was no asking for clarification or explanation, simply ignoring the advice. Coupled with a direct promise to continue to break the law on selling soap, not to mention that the soap itself was poor quality, beggars belief.

Whatever you say, dude. Keep up the good work.

 

[Susie]

Whatever you say, dude. Keep up the good work.

If there was ever a case of the pot calling the kettle black, this is it. You have the unique ability to make our long time members want to leave.

 

[topofmurrayhill]

Perfect. I suspected you two would be the first to respond. I mentioned two examples of things I witnessed in the vein of bullying newcomers, and each of you was responsible for one of them.

 

[artemis]

He wasn't "getting it" fast enough for peoples' liking, but he wasn't hostile. He was getting ganged up on. Doesn't take much analysis to explain why he's gone. It's one of those opportunities where everyone whips out their righteous indignation as if it's going to fix the world. If we dodged a bullet, whatever that means, the OP sure didn't.

So, I lurked around this site for months and months and witnessed overly harsh criticism for relatively small things. Like, a first time person (who may have never even used a forum before) getting slammed hard for necro-posting. Or in this case, after only two posts deciding that a person is unteachable. This sort of thing is why it took me so long to become a member, and why I still don't post questions. I am afraid that one example of my newb ignorance is going to result in assumptions being made not only about my practices as a soaper, but also about my intelligence and character as a human being. Who is the kettle and who is the pot makes no difference. I think the whole argumentative nature of some of these threads scares away more than just the OP on a given thread.

It took me a long time to write this, and a long time to hit "send." I hope it is received in the way I intended-- simply from the point of view of a relatively new person here.
Thanks.

 

[Susie]

So, I lurked around this site for months and months and witnessed overly harsh criticism for relatively small things. Like, a first time person (who may have never even used a forum before) getting slammed hard for necro-posting. Or in this case, after only two posts deciding that a person is unteachable. This sort of thing is why it took me so long to become a member, and why I still don't post questions. I am afraid that one example of my newb ignorance is going to result in assumptions being made not only about my practices as a soaper, but also about my intelligence and character as a human being. Who is the kettle and who is the pot makes no difference. I think the whole argumentative nature of some of these threads scares away more than just the OP on a given thread.

It took me a long time to write this, and a long time to hit "send." I hope it is received in the way I intended-- simply from the point of view of a relatively new person here.
Thanks.

This is constructive criticism. It is appreciated. I can learn how to handle things better. Is there something in my long post specifically that I should not do again? I am trying to help. I am not trying to chase people away.

Perfect. I suspected you two would be the first to respond. I mentioned two examples of things I witnessed in the vein of bullying newcomers, and each of you was responsible for one of them.

At least some of us are willing to admit fault and learn better behavior. Are you?

 

[GeezLouise]

No comment on the specifics of this thread, other than to agree that I probably wouldn't ever ask for help here, just sharing my experience. My manner of communication tends to hurt people's feelings, and I tend to be far less careful with those I interact with regularly and occasionally still act like I must have the last word. My best behaviors come when talking with old, old, ladies so sometimes I try to rein myself in and ask myself if I'd talk to 100-year old Jane Doe down at the church that way.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

So, I lurked around this site for months and months and witnessed overly harsh criticism for relatively small things. Like, a first time person (who may have never even used a forum before) getting slammed hard for necro-posting. Or in this case, after only two posts deciding that a person is unteachable. This sort of thing is why it took me so long to become a member, and why I still don't post questions. I am afraid that one example of my newb ignorance is going to result in assumptions being made not only about my practices as a soaper, but also about my intelligence and character as a human being. Who is the kettle and who is the pot makes no difference. I think the whole argumentative nature of some of these threads scares away more than just the OP on a given thread.

It took me a long time to write this, and a long time to hit "send." I hope it is received in the way I intended-- simply from the point of view of a relatively new person here.
Thanks.

Newb ignorance is never an issue. When people think that they are knowledgeable when they are actually wrong and refuse to learn - that is different. As I said before, no one HAS to help anyone else out with their soaping, it is done willingly but then of course it is never enjoyable to have that thrown back in your face.

There are many people here who have learnt a very great deal from the forum and the members of SMF. How can that be when the members are such monsters? The difference is the attitude (perceived, as this IS only online and assumptions will be made) of the person asking the questions.

If this was a real life forum, or a room full of people discussing something, a little time listening and observing how people respond to certain things, how to formulate questions well (a few days of watching and it is clear that when asking for help, full recipe etc is expected) and some sort of introduction is handy. Some people make a first post which is akin to throwing open the door and yelling a command at people. Personally, I don't like that. Not knowing forums or whatever is not really an excuse - no one would write a letter like that or make a call that way, and yet it is supposed to be okay in a forum?