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Longevity and? vs? rinsability--is it a tradeoff?

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luluzapcat

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I made an 85% CO and 15% OO with a very high superfat, and loved it--BUT it went way too fast. As I try to adjust the recipe to increase longevity, I'm realizing this may all be a straight tradeoff against how easily it rinses off, which I and my soap giftees really like.

Are both of these simply a function of solubility, so it's a question of finding the sweet spot? Or are there perhaps any additives that can help with either quality without compromising the other?

Thanks for any insights!
 

shunt2011

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If you make a well balanced bar of soap you can have it both ways. Any high CO soap will be extremely soluble in water and not last as long as a well balanced recipe. My soaps rinse clean and don't leave my skin tight at all. I personally don't like really high CO soap with the exception of my Salt soap and those are my favorite. And they last quite well.
 

Dawni

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Soaps high in coconut oil will be high in the hardness scale.. Not necessarily high in longevity. You'll need more palmitic and stearic acids - from lard, tallow, palm, and the plant butters - in your soap if you want em to last longer.

One trade off in using a lot of butters in your soap is a longer cure time... Like way more. I cure a 45% butter soap minimum 4mos. The animal fat ones don't take that long. Never tried palm, but it doesn't take that long either from what I've read.
 

luluzapcat

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Thanks folks--
My soap recipes all rinse off easily-- are you talking about that "squeaky clean" feeling?
I don't mean "squeaky clean", or I don't think I do. I mean the amount of time it takes after lathering up to feel like you've rinsed the soap off your hands. My father in particular wants to be very efficient about this, and uses detergent bars currently for that reason. I'm wondering if I could formulate something he'd like.

You'll need more palmitic and stearic acids - from lard, tallow, palm, and the plant butters - in your soap if you want em to last longer.
I have a bar with shea butter added for more longevity curing currently, but I did see that the more shea I added and the less coconut, the more the solubility went down in my soap calculator, which I presume means slower rinsing time. I'm still not clear on if I can get longer life without sacrificing some of that fast rinse...but maybe I'll find a good balance point at least!

Still wondering however if there are any additives or approaches that address this without the apparent tradeoff...
 

Dawni

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Hmmm... That's the same calculator I use. Personally, once I'm happy with my cleansing being low enough, my longevity being high enough, my linoleic and linolenic at ok numbers... I'm good to go.

I think when people talk about the solubility of a coconut oil soap, they are pertaining to the bar itself. I've used plenty soaps with very less coconut - I rarely use more than 18% in mine - and they all rinse off well.

Unlike Dove.... Which I hate, coz it takes forever to rinse off. Is this what you're pertaining to?
 

luluzapcat

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Hmmm... That's the same calculator I use. Personally, once I'm happy with my cleansing being low enough, my longevity being high enough, my linoleic and linolenic at ok numbers... I'm good to go.

I think when people talk about the solubility of a coconut oil soap, they are pertaining to the bar itself. I've used plenty soaps with very less coconut - I rarely use more than 18% in mine - and they all rinse off well.

Unlike Dove.... Which I hate, coz it takes forever to rinse off. Is this what you're pertaining to?
Yup! that's it. Good to hear the others rinse well. I do feel the high coconut one is the fastest-rinsing of those I've made, but maybe that's due to other properties of the other oils in my other bars. That's what I'd like to know...what causes a soap to be faster or slower to rinse off a human, so I can control that particular property?
 

Dawni

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That's what I'd like to know...what causes a soap to be faster or slower to rinse off a human, so I can control that particular property?
Good question.... One I've never asked since I have no problems rinsing off haha.

I'll have to pay more attention now when I try my soaps (I have more than one in the shower lol) haha.... And hopefully someone more experienced will come along and answer.
 

Quilter99755

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My first Go To soap was in the range of 50% OO, 25% CO and 25% PO...it would vary a bit from time to time...mostly with a 5% superfat. I usually noticed having rinsing problems. After being on here for a year I started on lard soaps...from 80% lard and 20% CO to now my favorite is 40% lard, 30% RBO 5% castor and the other 25% butters that I have on hand (shea, cocoa, mango, etc) and I no longer find any problems rinsing the soap off. My husband who has been a Dial user since forever (we've been married for 49 years) did not like my first soap but has tried the new recipes and loves them. Says they don't make his skin itch like the Dial. So I would have to say for me that getting rid of OO might have been the answer. But this is our skin feelings and our water which I know can vary from household to household. Make a small batch and try it out. I try to keep my longevity numbers on the high side so don't have a problem there.
 

Iluminameluna

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I believe most have given really good advice, in that the animal fats will give you really good conditioning for your skin, and a relatively low percentage of CO (20% or so) will give you good amount of cleansing and bubbles but not cause your bar of soap to just dissolve in a few days.
My own addition is to confirm that a higher percentage of both olive and Castor oils will contribute to the feeling of sliminess as you rinse your hands or body. I keep olive oil below 50% and castor to 5 or even 3% in my recipes for lather stability.
I goofed in one of my recipes recently and added something like 15% castor oil to one of my soap recipes, and oh what a mess! I had poured it into plastic molds besides, so they were a nightmare to remove. They're curing as I write this post and I'm just crossing my fingers they're not a slimy, gooey mess when they're used. Ugh.
 

Hope Ann

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I started on lard soaps...from 80% lard and 20% CO to now my favorite is 40% lard, 30% RBO 5% castor and the other 25% butters that I have on hand (shea, cocoa, mango, etc) and I no longer find any problems rinsing the soap off.
How does the newer soap lather compared to the old one? I've made very similar to both and do love the combination of lard and butter. Butters are so spendy though.

Hope
 

luluzapcat

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Thanks all for the advice. To add a twist, I'm keeping to vegetarian and palm-free. So...lard won't be my answer. (I have made and loved lard soaps in the past and part of my formula journey is looking for good substitutions).

I'll have to see how my less coconut/more shea does...thanks @Dawni for the heads-up about cure time! I didn't know that.
 

atiz

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Have you thought about trying a brine bar (soleseife)? I have only made a few batches, but really like them, somehow have the feeling that they rinse off very well. Maybe because they have a bit more coconut in them (28%). I really love how they are smooth and hard like a rock, rinse well, and lather decently. Maybe you would like them too!
 

Kiwi2:)

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Thanks folks--

I don't mean "squeaky clean", or I don't think I do. I mean the amount of time it takes after lathering up to feel like you've rinsed the soap off your hands. My father in particular wants to be very efficient about this, and uses detergent bars currently for that reason. I'm wondering if I could formulate something he'd like.


I have a bar with shea butter added for more longevity curing currently, but I did see that the more shea I added and the less coconut, the more the solubility went down in my soap calculator, which I presume means slower rinsing time. I'm still not clear on if I can get longer life without sacrificing some of that fast rinse...but maybe I'll find a good balance point at least!

Still wondering however if there are any additives or approaches that address this without the apparent tradeoff...
Hi there -

I try to offer mostly vegan soaps too :) and we are palm-free also. I had the same problem in that my bars are hard but I wanted to increase the longevity (haven't had the problem with rinse-off though). I have started adding a small amount of soy wax to my recipe (fully hydrogenated soybean oil) and that does seem to be making the difference that I wanted without sacrificing the beautiful lather that I love and the fluidity (is that a word?) of the batter. But @KiwiMoose is much more experienced with this additive than I am :)
 

Quilter99755

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How does the newer soap lather compared to the old one? I've made very similar to both and do love the combination of lard and butter. Butters are so spendy though.

Hope
I love a creamy lather and get that now with the lard/RBO combos. I don't miss the the bigger bubbles that CO gave me. I also just checked some of my other newer recipes and sometimes the other 25% contains PO, too. The butters add a nice feeling, but looking at my notes the biggest change in how things feel and rinse was to get rid of the OO. As long as the main oils are lard and RBO, it doesn't seem to matter what is in the other 20-30%. But that is what works for my skin and our water (hard). Try out small batches of soap 300-500 grams. Find out what works for you.
 

KiwiMoose

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It seems to me that there is a slight gender difference in how much rinsability is preferred. All the men (and boys) in my household complain that my soap doesn't rinse off well - and leaves their hands feeling 'greasy'. All the women I sell and give my soap to find this characteristic to be the very thing that makes them prefer my soap to any store bought stuff. So yes - your dad might well prefer a low superfat so that it does give a squeaky clean and dry feeling.
To improve longevity of your soap use higher stearic/palmitic oils, and to improve rinsability use a lower superfat.
 

luluzapcat

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Maybe I'm imagining there's a characteristic that isn't actually separate from others. I don't need "squeaky clean" but rather fast rinse-off of the soap itself. Maybe those are the same thing? But I figured the Cleansing value in soap calculators gets at the squeaky clean vs. leave-some-oils-behind aspect, and Longevity is itself, but then is Rinseability something else--controlled by different combo of fatty acids, superfat, additives? Or will an easily rinsed-off soap be either always highly cleansing, OR always short-lived? Just not sure what that quality is tied to. Sorry if I'm being dense!
 

Hope Ann

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I love a creamy lather and get that now with the lard/RBO combos. I don't miss the the bigger bubbles that CO gave me. I also just checked some of my other newer recipes and sometimes the other 25% contains PO, too. The butters add a nice feeling, but looking at my notes the biggest change in how things feel and rinse was to get rid of the OO. As long as the main oils are lard and RBO, it doesn't seem to matter what is in the other 20-30%. But that is what works for my skin and our water (hard). Try out small batches of soap 300-500 grams. Find out what works for you.
So interesting! I have a 70% lard / RBO with kokum and it's very nice but the lather feels a little thin compared to my high lard / butter / SAO which is super creamy, thick, and luxurious. I too have hard water. I'm still playing with duplicating the luxury feel at a pauper price tag. :-D

Hope
 

Quilter99755

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So interesting! I have a 70% lard / RBO with kokum and it's very nice but the lather feels a little thin compared to my high lard / butter / SAO which is super creamy, thick, and luxurious. I too have hard water. I'm still playing with duplicating the luxury feel at a pauper price tag. :-D

Hope
I actually haven't tried to sub SAO for the RBO as the SAO was more expensive and after I tried the RBO and I loved it, I just didn't bother. I was intrigued with RBO after making a lotion out of it and all the testing that @Dawni has done. I'll put SAO on my things to try out the next time I'm soaping. Right at the moment I'm having back issues that are not allowing me to stand on my feet long enough to soap. So far I love the creamy lather I get with RBO, but if the SAO is even better, I at least want to know. Thanks for the info. My section of notebook that is labeled "Try This" is getting larger and larger. LOL
 

Hope Ann

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So far I love the creamy lather I get with RBO, but if the SAO is even better, I at least want to know. Thanks for the info. My section of notebook that is labeled "Try This" is getting larger and larger. LOL
My notebook is big too. I'm starting to think about showering twice a day so I can test more soap and I sure use Covid as an excuse to wash my hands 60 times a day. LOL The man rolls his eyes at me but uses what I ask to give me male feedback.

I don't know if my thicker lather was from the butters or SAO so am now working my way through various versions to try to recreate with less butter. This was an experimental super luxury feel batch so made and of course since it's full of spendy items I loved it. It was creamy lathery even in the first week, cured fast, hard even leaving a few day old piece in the shower didn't dissolve... everything I wanted except price point so back to the chalkboard. I do really like SAO though as I've used it in other soaps and I do believe it adds a luxury feel.

Hope
 

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