Liquid Soap Colorant & Scent ?

[DeeAnna]

In your photo, I see the material on top is opaque white -- is that the soap? If so, do you know whether the soap supposed to be opaque white like this?

You didn't say anything about the soap itself in this thread, and it would be good to know about that. I have some vague ideas about the problem, but need to know more.

 

[BettyW]

Yes it is opaque.
I made the Hogwash recipe by Zany (50% Palm Kernal Flakes & 50% lard - 0% superfat).

 

[DeeAnna]

I haven't looked up her Hog Wash recipe to confirm, but I know Zany prefers to use recipes that require neutralization, so I'm assuming the Hog Wash recipe calls for neutralization. It is very easy, especially for beginners, to over-neutralize liquid soap.

I make a liquid soap from lard and it's also milky, but this soap lets a bit of light pass through -- it is not completely opaque like frosting. There can be a small layer of insoluble soap that eventually floats on top of this type of soap, but I stress this should be a thin layer -- under 1/8" thick. I would expect a palm-lard liquid soap to appear similar to my all-lard LS.

If you over-neutralize liquid soap, the soap will decompose and form a dead white, opaque layer of fatty acids. This layer floats on top of any actual soap. The soap layer at the bottom will be clear to milky-translucent depending on the recipe.

If your soap has been over-neutralized, I'm not surprised that a glycerin-based colorant won't mix with what you think is the soap. If what I think is wrong with your soap is truly the case, the only soap that you have is the thin white layer at the bottom -- and yes the colorant you added is mixed with this small bit of soap. The white top layer is fatty acids. A glycerin based colorant will be insoluble in this layer.

You can confirm this is the situation by adding some dry KOH to a sample of the white top layer. Measure, say, a sample of 100 grams of the white top layer into a clear glass jar and add 3-5 grams of dry KOH. After stirring the KOH into the mixture until you can't feel any flakes on the bottom. The mixture may warm slightly and may get quite a bit thicker after you stir in the KOH. Let the sample sit for some hours to overnight. After this time passes, see if this material begins to separate into a more translucent lower layer and a (hopefully) thinner top layer.

If the first dose doesn't make much of a change, mix in a second 3-5 gram dose of KOH to the sample and repeat the waiting time. If there isn't much change after the second dose, my theory is probably wrong. If that is the case, I give up -- I don't know what the problem is with this soap. If there is a definite change in the mixture with the addition of KOH, then the soap has been over neutralized.

Caution -- After you're done, discard the sample down the drain with plenty of water. It is not going to be skin safe, so do not use it on your skin.

 

[BettyW]

Yes it is neutriailized with borax.

I am going to give your suggestion a try.

Thank you.

 

[linne1gi]

I haven't looked up her Hog Wash recipe to confirm, but I know Zany prefers to use recipes that require neutralization, so I'm assuming the Hog Wash recipe calls for neutralization. It is very easy, especially for beginners, to over-neutralize liquid soap.

I make a liquid soap from lard and it's also milky, but this soap lets a bit of light pass through -- it is not completely opaque like frosting. There can be a small layer of insoluble soap that eventually floats on top of this type of soap, but I stress this should be a thin layer -- under 1/8" thick. I would expect a palm-lard liquid soap to appear similar to my all-lard LS.

If you over-neutralize liquid soap, the soap will decompose and form a dead white, opaque layer of fatty acids. This layer floats on top of any actual soap. The soap layer at the bottom will be clear to milky-translucent depending on the recipe.

If your soap has been over-neutralized, I'm not surprised that a glycerin-based colorant won't mix with what you think is the soap. If what I think is wrong with your soap is truly the case, the only soap that you have is the thin white layer at the bottom -- and yes the colorant you added is mixed with this small bit of soap. The white top layer is fatty acids. A glycerin based colorant will be insoluble in this layer.

You can confirm this is the situation by adding some dry KOH to a sample of the white top layer. Measure, say, a sample of 100 grams of the white top layer into a clear glass jar and add 3-5 grams of dry KOH. After stirring the KOH into the mixture until you can't feel any flakes on the bottom. The mixture may warm slightly and may get quite a bit thicker after you stir in the KOH. Let the sample sit for some hours to overnight. After this time passes, see if this material begins to separate into a more translucent lower layer and a (hopefully) thinner top layer.

If the first dose doesn't make much of a change, mix in a second 3-5 gram dose of KOH to the sample and repeat the waiting time. If there isn't much change after the second dose, my theory is probably wrong. If that is the case, I give up -- I don't know what the problem is with this soap. If there is a definite change in the mixture with the addition of KOH, then the soap has been over neutralized.

Caution -- After you're done, discard the sample down the drain with plenty of water. It is not going to be skin safe, so do not use it on your skin.

A soaper in a facebook group gave me some good advice years ago. She suggested, (when you have a separated liquid soap with fat floating on the top) to make up a small amount of a solution of KOH and water 50/50 and add it teaspoon full at a time to your liquid soap. (I mean to say that this may work better than adding the dry KOH, because it, the liquid KOH and water, will react better with the fatty acids, than the dry). What do you think?

 

[BettyW]

A soaper in a facebook group gave me some good advice years ago. She suggested, (when you have a separated liquid soap with fat floating on the top) to make up a small amount of a solution of KOH and water 50/50 and add it teaspoon full at a time to your liquid soap. (I mean to say that this may work better than adding the dry KOH, because it, the liquid KOH and water, will react better with the fatty acids, than the dry). What do you think?

I will give that a try also.

Thank you.

 

[linne1gi]

I will give that a try also.

Thank you.

You're welcome. Let us know how it works.

 

[DeeAnna]

A soaper in a facebook group gave me some good advice years ago. She suggested, (when you have a separated liquid soap with fat floating on the top) to make up a small amount of a solution of KOH and water 50/50 and add it teaspoon full at a time to your liquid soap. (I mean to say that this may work better than adding the dry KOH, because it, the liquid KOH and water, will react better with the fatty acids, than the dry). What do you think?

I agree your method is a good way to fix the soap if you know the problem is excess superfat. You don't want to add too much KOH to make the soap lye heavy, so adding KOH cautiously as you describe is a smart way to go.

At the moment, we don't know what the problem is with the OP's soap. Adding a moderate excess of dry KOH to a sample is my "quick 'n dirty" way to learn if the problem is indeed excess superfat, but it will make the soap lye heavy. That's why a person would want to do this test only using a sample of the soap.

If excess superfat is indeed the problem, then your method is the best way to fix the whole batch. But it's a slow fix ... and we don't know at this point if this solution is appropriate for the problem.

 

[linne1gi]

I agree your method is a good way to fix the soap if you know the problem is excess superfat. You don't want to add too much KOH to make the soap lye heavy, so adding KOH cautiously as you describe is a smart way to go.

At the moment, we don't know what the problem is with the OP's soap. Adding a moderate excess of dry KOH to a sample is my "quick 'n dirty" way to learn if the problem is indeed excess superfat, but it will make the soap lye heavy. That's why a person would want to do this test only using a sample of the soap.

If excess superfat is indeed the problem, then your method is the best way to fix the whole batch. But it's a slow fix ... and we don't know at this point if this solution is appropriate for the problem.

Thank you for your answer.

 

[BettyW]

I made the liquid soap with 0% Superfat.

Experiment #1
I just took 100 grams of liquid soap and added 5 grams of KOH lye dry in a small glass jar. Swirling the mixture around to dissolve it. Within a couple of minutes it went from looking like frosting to more of a gel looking soap. Going to let it sit for 8 hours or over night to see what happens.

Experiement #2
100 grams liquid soap
5 grams KOH lye
5 grams distilled water
Mixed water and lye up. Then added all of it to liquid soap.
This liquid soap turned to a gel. Will let it set 8 hours or over night.

 

[DeeAnna]

The superfat percentage you type into the recipe calculator isn't necessarily the real superfat in the finished real-life soap. Many other factors can affect the percentage of free fat or free fatty acids.

The purity of the KOH is a big factor. If you overstate or understate the KOH purity when calculating a recipe, you can easily end up with a lye heavy or fat heavy soap.

Also the use of additives that can cause the soap to decompose - citric acid and borax being two common examples.

It's telling that the soap made such a quick turn-around from "white frosting" to a gel in response to adding KOH.

 

[BettyW]

Yes.
Thank you so much everyone for explaining how to fix this soap.
I have learned so very much!!

 

[linne1gi]

The superfat percentage you type into the recipe calculator isn't necessarily the real superfat in the finished real-life soap. Many other factors can affect the percentage of free fat or free fatty acids.

The purity of the KOH is a big factor. If you overstate or understate the KOH purity when calculating a recipe, you can easily end up with a lye heavy or fat heavy soap.

Also the use of additives that can cause the soap to decompose - citric acid and borax being two common examples.

It's telling that the soap made such a quick turn-around from "white frosting" to a gel in response to adding KOH.

Yes, seems to me like that was a layer of fat.

 

[DeeAnna]

@linne1gi -- I wanted to respond to this -- "...this may work better than adding the dry KOH, because it, the liquid KOH and water, will react better with the fatty acids, than the dry..."

Adding small amounts of dry KOH to liquid soap actually works surprisingly well. There's a lot of water already in diluted soap, so the solid alkali dissolves quickly and without a lot of fuss. If you think about it -- typically diluted liquid soap contains 40% water or more -- so there's already plenty of water in the diluted soap to dissolve the dry KOH quickly.

I don't normally advise beginners to add solid alkali to their liquid soap to deal with superfat separation, but I avoid giving this advice mostly because it is a little harder to measure dry KOH as accurately and easily as a KOH solution. But I've done it often enough to know it's not difficult if you have a decent scale and a bit of patience.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Yes it is neutriailized with borax.

Hmmm. Then that's not my Hog Wash recipe. I don't use Borax. If I were to use Borax to neutralize, the recommendation is to make up a 33% Borax solution first and add it while it is still warm. If left to cool, the Borax particulates out and settles to the bottom -- you then need to chip it out with a knife or something similar. Don't ask me how I know. Use rate: 0.75 oz. per pound of paste.

I have learned so very much!!

Kudos to @DeeAnna for figuring this out. To be honest, I didn't know what to make of the clear soap at the bottom in that picture you posted. It was a first for me. I'm learning here too!

 

[BettyW]

Hmmm. Then that's not my Hog Wash recipe. I don't use Borax. If I were to use Borax to neutralize, the recommendation is to make up a 33% Borax solution first and add it while it is still warm. If left to cool, the Borax particulates out and settles to the bottom -- you then need to chip it out with a knife or something similar. Don't ask me how I know. Use rate: 0.75 oz. per pound of paste.

Kudos to @DeeAnna for figuring this out. To be honest, I didn't know what to make of the clear soap at the bottom in that picture you posted. It was a first for me. I'm learning here too!

Zany
The recipe I used was from your pdf attached in Help Something is Wrong My Liquid Soap? #5
Zany's Friday Night Special/Hog Wash Hair & Body Shampoo which has Borax in the recipe.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Now I remember! I was surprised when you started this new thread instead of continuing with the old thread. It would have been better if you had continued with the original thread because that is where your recipe is. I remember thinking that at the time but couldn't remember the name of the previous thread. Sheesh.

Go here to read my comments:
Help Something is Wrong my Liquid Soap?

So I went there and now it seems there are a few more items germain to this discussion.
1) Most likely you used Spectrum Palm Oil -- as far as I know, that brand doesn't make PKO.
2) The Palm Oil was 7 years old.
3) You used dual lye.
4) You stick blended but, as far as I can tell, didn't bring the batch to hard trace. Correct?

ETA: The Borax in my Hog Wash recipe was added to the dilution water as a water softener to speed up dilution, at a rate of 2 tsp. for a 32 oz. batch. If I understand correctly, your recipe is a 22 oz batch. So how much Borax did you add?

 

[BettyW]

Batch #1 Hot Processed
1. Thought Spectrum Palm Oil was the same as Palm Kernel Oil.
2. Yes 7 yrs old.
3. Yes used dual lye which made it a giant slimmy rubber blob.
4. Stick blended. Hard trace-thick chunky mash potatoes. Let sit overnight. After zap test was ok (next day) I then added water to dilute it.
Yes this first batch was 22 oz.
No Polysorbate 80

Batch #2 Hot Processed
16 oz. Palm Kernel Flakes
16 oz. Lard
21 oz. Distilled Water
7 oz. KOH Lye
96 oz. Distilled Water (Boiling)
2 tsp. Borax
Polysorbate 80
Colorant & Scent

To save batch #1
I melted batch #1 and slowly added small amounts to batch #2 until I liked thickness.
Letting it sit over night each time & each time there was what looked like colorant settling at bottom of jar. I had to wait for Polysorbate 80 to arrive in the mail before I could add it in. Once I added it in this corrected the colorant settling at bottom of jar.

The soap was amazing but looked like frosting so to correct that I tested 100 grams of soap with 3 grams of KOH lye. It looked like it was going to be fine after letting it set overnight to check for problems. Next day the soap was still a gel and didn't have the frosting look to it. Then I added enough KOH to fix entire batch (batch #1 & #2 combined).

Really this liquid soap.

 

[Zany_in_CO]

Really this liquid soap.

Thanks for that explanation, Betty. You did good considering what you had to work with. I think at this point I would do nothing more. Just sequester it for a good month or more to see how it develops over time. Soap has a way of doing it's own thing if you get out of its way.

As @DeeAnna said, lard makes opaque LS. In my experience, it clears at 6 months or so, opaque at the bottom; clear at the top.

ETA: Here's the gallon batch of Lard & PKO I made 9/5/20

 

[BettyW]

I am happy with it for now. It feels great on my hands! Feels gentle and conditioning. Lathers well in former bottle. Can't handle washing my hands with soap from store as it burns so.

Thank you for your help everyone.