Liquid castile: oxidation or DOS?

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SimpleSoaper

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I made this liquid castile on Feb 24 of this year. I've been aging it in a closed plastic container because it really dried my hands when new. After 4 months the color has changed quite a bit. Is this just the normal oxidation, or is it DOS (dreaded orange slime)?

liqsoap-1.jpg


liqsoap-2.jpg
 

IrishLass

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That's quite a considerable change in appearance. What was your superfat? How does it smell? Any off-odors?

This is just me, but whenever I make my own liquid soap paste, I store any leftover paste that I don't dilute right away in a Ziploc bag and place it in my fridge, and so far, I've never had any discoloration (I've been making LS since 2012).

Having said that, though, I made a batch of cream soap paste once (different kind of formula/technique than LS), and it did the same kind of thing as what your pics show above. My cream soap paste was a lovely off-white color when first made, but after letting the leftover/excess paste sit in a covered bucket for about 2 years at room temp, I found upon opening it that it had it turned an orangey color and had taken on a stale 'old oil' smell. I ended up throwing it away.

Hopefully more folks will chime in soon with their experiences, but if it were mine and it had any undesirable off-smells, I would toss it. If it smelled fine, though, I think I'd hazard diluting some of it to see what happens.


IrishLass :)
 

Susie

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I need the entire recipe in weights to even begin to guess.

Also, liquid soap is what it is when you make it. Aging it does not change it.
 

lenarenee

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I need the entire recipe in weights to even begin to guess.

Also, liquid soap is what it is when you make it. Aging it does not change it.
So if a liquid soap is slightly zappy, aging it won't have the same affect as when you take a lye heavy cp soap and cure it several months more than usual?

Does a dilute batch of liquid soap have a lower pH than cp soap due to the amount of water added to it?

(can you tell I'm about to make my 2nd batch of liquid soap? :))
 

Susie

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So if a liquid soap is slightly zappy, aging it won't have the same affect as when you take a lye heavy cp soap and cure it several months more than usual?

Does a dilute batch of liquid soap have a lower pH than cp soap due to the amount of water added to it?

(can you tell I'm about to make my 2nd batch of liquid soap? :))
If it is slightly zappy, you should use a superfat. :-? I have never had a zappy soap that fixed itself after the initial gel stage, I just added the correct superfat amount, and reheated it. I don't think it is going to be fixed by time. I could be wrong, and we need to wait for the soap science gurus to come tell us. The point I was trying to make is that the basic qualities of the soap, i.e. drying, conditioning, lather, etc, are not going to change. Liquid soap is what it is once it gels. Cure won't change it.
 

topofmurrayhill

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Also, liquid soap is what it is when you make it. Aging it does not change it.
Well it's an interesting question. It's hard to believe any soap doesn't change, but maybe liquid soap doesn't change enough to be noticeable. Then again maybe it does.

If we question only whether it gets milder, I know that your experiences lead you to believe it doesn't, but it's slightly walking out on a limb to assert it as a fact. The matter seems to depend on who is in the conversation.

Just a few years ago, many people here said the opposite and nobody seemed to disagree. What has changed since then is most of the people.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=32999
 

Susie

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Well it's an interesting question. It's hard to believe any soap doesn't change, but maybe liquid soap doesn't change enough to be noticeable. Then again maybe it does.

If we question only whether it gets milder, I know that your experiences lead you to believe it doesn't, but it's slightly walking out on a limb to assert it as a fact. The matter seems to depend on who is in the conversation.

Just a few years ago, many people here said the opposite and nobody seemed to disagree. What has changed since then is most of the people.

http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=32999

That is interesting.

My experience is one thing. I their's is another. I have used only the liquid glycerine soap, and the 100% CO recipes of those mentioned. And the others mentioned were vague at best, so no way to know what they were. But, I wonder if recipe makes the difference.

I may have time next week start a couple of experiment batches. Maybe.
It was a bit of a convoluted path the final product, but in the end the recipe was:

EVOO 16 oz
Water 6.08 oz (actually a little more than that)
KOH 90% 3.38 oz

Here is the story from Feb 24:
http://www.soapmakingforum.com/showthread.php?t=58761

OK, so what you have is 3% superfat, as that is what I set Soapee.com at to figure the corrective KOH amount. This soap should be good to dilute and use. Liquid soap tends to be a tad more drying to my skin due to lower superfat, but this should not be stripping or super drying.

As for the color change, does the paste smell bad?
 
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Arimara

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OK, so what you have is 3% superfat, as that is what I set Soapee.com at to figure the corrective KOH amount. This soap should be good to dilute and use. Liquid soap tends to be a tad more drying to my skin due to lower superfat, but this should not be stripping or super drying.

As for the color change, does the paste smell bad?
I set the SF to zero on soapcalc. It looks like a water discount was used. I've never made a castile liquid soap and on such short notice, I can't get the olive oil to make one. I could try and see if I can get my sis to give me a lift to BJ's or some such to get some and make the soap as Simple Soaper made it. I'm used to using water so I can keep an eye out as I do this.
 

Susie

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I use a 3:1 water ratio (like summerbeemeadow.com and Soapee.com allow). This person used Soapcalc.net that uses a lower water amount. I do not like the paste that low amount of water yields. It is more difficult to stir, and dilutes much slower.

If I could suggest to both of you to try this recipe, you will kick yourself for trying anything else. It is IrishLass's with one tweak in what to mix the KOH with. This has 3% superfat.

Coconut Oil 25% 8 oz
Olive Oil 65% 20.8 oz
Castor Oil 10% 3.2 oz

KOH 7.1 oz (set calculator to 90% purity. Find out your KOH purity and adjust accordingly.)
Water 10 oz
Sugar 1 tablespoon
Glycerin 11.3 oz

Melt and mix the oils. Add the glycerin to the oils.
Mix the KOH in small increments, stirring vigorously, with the water. (Save a tablespoon out to mix with the sugar, then dump that into the oils.)
Once the KOH is completely dissolved, add it to the oils.
Stickblend until you get an applesauce, you will then think it is ready, it is not. Continue to stickblend, it will go back to liquid, but once it is liquid, be prepared for either flying bubbles or almost instantaneous paste. I have had it do both on the various batches I have made. Either way, you are done stickblending. Cover the pot and walk away. I usually clean up all my soaping stuff and wash the dishes. Once you have taken a break for half an hour or more, start checking the paste. Once you see it looking like vaseline was mixed in, you can zap check it. If it is zapless, you can begin dilution. My theory is that the hotter your oils and your KOH/water mixture, the less time it takes to hit gel stage, but I have no proof. I have had this take as little as 20 minutes, and as long as 4 hours. You can even just mix until it is fully emulsified and then cover it and walk away. Simple and fast, with a good thick handsoap.
 
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DeeAnna

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"...My theory is that the hotter your oils and your KOH/water mixture, the less time it takes to hit gel stage..."

I agree with you, Susie!
 

Arimara

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I use a 3:1 water ratio (like summerbeemeadow.com and Soapee.com allow). This person used Soapcalc.net that uses a lower water amount. I do not like the paste that low amount of water yields. It is more difficult to stir, and dilutes much slower.

If I could suggest to both of you to try this recipe, you will kick yourself for trying anything else. It is IrishLass's with one tweak in what to mix the KOH with. This has 3% superfat.

Coconut Oil 25% 8 oz
Olive Oil 65% 20.8 oz
Castor Oil 10% 3.2 oz

KOH 7.1 oz (set calculator to 90% purity. Find out your KOH purity and adjust accordingly.)
Water 10 oz
Sugar 1 tablespoon
Glycerin 11.3 oz

Melt and mix the oils. Add the glycerin to the oils.
Mix the KOH in small increments, stirring vigorously, with the water. (Save a tablespoon out to mix with the sugar, then dump that into the oils.)
Once the KOH is completely dissolved, add it to the oils.
Stickblend until you get an applesauce, you will then think it is ready, it is not. Continue to stickblend, it will go back to liquid, but once it is liquid, be prepared for either flying bubbles or almost instantaneous paste. I have had it do both on the various batches I have made. Either way, you are done stickblending. Cover the pot and walk away. I usually clean up all my soaping stuff and wash the dishes. Once you have taken a break for half an hour or more, start checking the paste. Once you see it looking like vaseline was mixed in, you can zap check it. If it is zapless, you can begin dilution. My theory is that the hotter your oils and your KOH/water mixture, the less time it takes to hit gel stage, but I have no proof. I have had this take as little as 20 minutes, and as long as 4 hours. You can even just mix until it is fully emulsified and then cover it and walk away. Simple and fast, with a good thick handsoap.
Soapcalc came up with about the same thing when 3:1 ratio was used. :) SimpleSoaper used the water% of oils @ 38%, which is why her batch came out like it did. I still have some castor oil to use up and I always wanted to smell like herbal essence so I might give that recipe a try. My stick blender may hate me though.
 

SimpleSoaper

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Thanks to all for the thoughts and suggestions, and also for that recipe. I'll try it the next time I make liquid soap. I threw out my current discolored batch. It didn't really smell bad, but I figure if the color change was at all normal a few people would have said so. It was too drying for my hands anyway.
 
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