labeling

[Tallowism]

Right now I am making HP scent free lard lye, beef tallow hand/body soap. I have some EO and FO I can add when I become more proficient. But for now, on my basic scent free soaps, if I were to inform customers on their ingredients, would "potassium tallowate and water" be a correct description? I understand with superfatting there will be extra unsaponified fat left.

But 3 ingredients to make... fat, lye, and water....resulting in potassium tallowate and water after saponification....would that be a proper description?

I am not submitting for FDA approval nor am I printing labels for items to be sold on store shelves. I am just wanting to inform potential buyers of the ingredients in their soap.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

So much wrong in these few sentences, but I'll just go with pointing out that the inci for saponified lard is sodium lardate, not sodium tallowate.

 

[AliOop]

Good for you that you are starting out with a simple soap, and a desire to ethically and correctly label your soap.

You have accurately identified the issues that arose from labeling “out of the pot” ingredients: without scientific testing, you don’t know the exact ingredients. If all the tallow did not saponify (because you include a superfat), the ingredients should be sodium tallowate, water, tallow - and glycerine, which is a natural by-product of making soap.

I don’t have enough scientific knowledge to know whether you will have more unspaonified tallow than glycerin; this is something that perhaps @DeeAnna or @ResolvableOwl could answer for you. The answer matters, because the ingredients are typically listed in descending order of quantity.

EDIT: I just saw Gent’s answer. I missed the word “lard” in your first sentence, and the fact that you mentioned potassium hydroxide, not sodium hydroxide. Are you making liquid soap then?

 

[TheGecko]

There are two ways you can label...what goes IN the pot and what comes OUT of the pot.

What goes IN the pot are your ingredients say...“Water, palm oil, coconut oil, olive oil, sodium hydroxide, lavender essential oil, and mica” and you would list them in descending order (largest amount to smallest amount).

Then there is what comes OUT of the pot which would be..."Sodium palmate, sodium coocate, sodium olivate, lavender essential oil and mica." But as you noted...there is also water and unsaponified oils (from SF), and there is also glycerin.

As noted by Marie Gale (an authority on stuff like this), the problem with listing what comes OUT of the pot is that you don't know exactly how much of the later items there actually is so you can't put them in the right order.

Another way you could label since you aren't selling to the pubic would be to use: "Saponified oils of __________________".

A note about the FDA. The FDA only defines what "true soap" is and then whether or not your soap would fall under Cosmetic or Drug rules. If you are making "true soap" with no cosmetic or drug claims, then it is regulated by the CPSC and they are a free for all.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

@Tallowism
How many ingredients do you intend to use? Three (beef tallow + water + lye), or four (beef tallow + pig lard + water + lye)?

What kind of lye are you using? NaOH (→ sodium XYZ-ate) or KOH (→ potassium XYZ-ate)?

Bar soap or liquid/cream soap?

 

[Tallowism]

Sorry. As a noob I forget specifics as they do matter.
I am making both lard and beef tallow soap. (separate batches) Not combining the 2.
I am making hard bar soap using NaOH lye.

So if I get this right;
lard + lye + water = sodium lardate, water, glycerine, and unsaponified lard (non-scientifically speaking)
tallow + Lye + water = potassium tallowate, water, glycerine, unsaponified tallow (non-scientifically speaking)

As a meat broker I sell pasture raised/pasture finished beef, lamb and pork. People who care about the way the food they eat were raised and processed also care about the things they put on their skin. Purity and honesty are as important to them as it is to me. That said, simplicity and minimal ingredients has merits above many things consumers look for. I want to no lies leave my lips.

These are the things I think about as I render the fat of my animals.

 

[AliOop]

Thanks for clarifying. I do like your focus on ethical production of quality products.

If you are making bar soap, you will use sodium hydroxide, resulting in SODIUM (not potassium) tallowate or SODIUM (not potassium) lardate.

Potassium hydroxide is generally used to make liquid soap, although it can be used in small amounts along with a majority of sodium hydroxide when making bar soap. This would be called a "dual lye" soap, and is a bit of an advanced technique to create a bar soap that lathers a bit more easily. You actually might want to consider that for your single-oil soaps, for the reasons described below.

When making a single fat soap, it is often best to add some additional ingredients to make up for things that aren't in that single fat. For instance, tallow and lard produce hard bars with tight, creamy, but minimal lather. You can boost the lather by adding some sort of starch or sugar. If you want stay as "natural" as possible, consider adding honey, molasses, maple syrup, or perhaps goat milk. Be sure to read up on this forum about how to successfully add any of those things to your soap, because they can all be a bit tricky. But they are absolutely worth what they bring to the table in terms of improving the overall quality of your soap.

 

[ResolvableOwl]

@Tallowism I instantly thought there was something about your username . It's a great idea, shortest ways possible, honesty, and simplicity.
I love the idea to choose between pig and beef soap, just as I can choose between pig and beef meat at the butcher's.
Lard is one of the few soaps with a composition that is, if not ideal, at least balanced enough to give a decent soap bar all by itself. Beef tallow makes harder (maybe too hard) soap, so let's see how this will pan out. (Has anyone tried to improve “too hard” recipes by whipping or deliberate rebatching?)

I can't help you with the legalese of labels. But as a customer, I would be happy with either of the IN and OUT variants that @TheGecko mentioned, with a slight tendency to the IN.

I wish you that your soaps will find their following in real life. But I'm sure you'll find many fans here at SMF – with a strong lard cult all around . Keep us updated about your adventures!

 

[TheGecko]

tallow + Lye + water = potassium tallowate, water, glycerine, unsaponified tallow (non-scientifically speaking)

No. If you're using NaOH, you're using SODIUM Hydroxide, NOT Potassium Hydroxide.

 

[Emmamia]

As a big fan of this forum, I love to soap with lard…. But I’ve been wondering if lard affect the scent of the soap… I feel that when I use lard my soaps lost lots of the fragrance/EO.

 

[Rsapienza]

As a big fan of this forum, I love to soap with lard…. But I’ve been wondering if lard affect the scent of the soap… I feel that when I use lard my soaps lost lots of the fragrance/EO.

I use lard quite regularly. I don’t find that I lose any of my scent.