juniper's tar oil

Discussion in 'SoapmakingFriend.com Support Forum' started by jamal, Apr 16, 2019.

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  1. Apr 16, 2019 #1

    jamal

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    greeting . In the soap calculator there is a number for the application of pine tar oil. In our country there is only tar oil, juniper plant. We do not have pine tar oil. How do I calculate the number of oil for the juniper's tar oil?
     
  2. Apr 16, 2019 #2

    DeeAnna

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    Determining the saponification value of an unknown fat can be done, but it is not easy. Kevin Dunn, in his book Scientific Soapmaking, has a procedure for kitchen chemists. If you want to do the testing yourself, it would be best to get his book and learn his procedure.

    Otherwise, I would search the internet for --

    "juniper tar" saponification value

    -- and see if you can find the information online.

    From a quick search, I gather there are several grades of juniper tar. I also got the impression that the crude grades can be risky to use on the body. You are best able to decide which type you have.
     
  3. Apr 16, 2019 #3

    dixiedragon

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    I would love to try juniper oil! Can you describe it to me? I bet it smells nice!

    What is it used for? Here some folks put the pine tar on horse hooves, so we know it's safe for skin contact, at least.

    I would first determine if the juniper oil is safe for skin contact, and then if so, I would make soap and use it at 5%, and then just plug pine tar into the calculator.

    Also, it might be worth it to contact a chemistry teacher or professor with this question. This might be a good research project for a grad student.
     
  4. Apr 16, 2019 #4

    Yooper

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    It can be added to soapmakingfriend- but to do that, we'd definitely have to have the data on the saponification value. At a wild guess, it would likely be similar to pine tar- but "similar" could easily be off by 20% I would think.

    If you can find the information, we will add it to the calculator.
     
  5. Apr 16, 2019 #5

    Andrew

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    use soapee.com. pine tar is in there.

    SAP KOH: 0.06
    SAP NaOH 0.043
     
  6. Apr 17, 2019 #6

    Obsidian

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    The OP doesn't have pine tar, they have juniper tar which is completely different from pine.
     
  7. Apr 17, 2019 #7

    Andrew

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    (long sigh) Both pine and juniper tar are produced by the high temperature carbonization of of the respective woods in anoxic conditions. In addition, pine and juniper share the same order and are pretty similar when it comes to sap, hardness, etc..

    The process in producing the tars is actually exactly the same and they are treated the same in soap. They are also used in soap for the same topical issues (eczema, psoriasis etc).

    This is a very long way of saying that if the juniper tar is thick and gooy like pine tar, produced in the same process as pine tar, and produced from a tree similar to pine, then the juniper tar will run through a soap calculator pretty much the same. I think there is a good point to make logically about how much fat there is in soft wood. Almost none since it is made out of cellulose.

    So not completely different.
     
  8. Apr 17, 2019 #8

    earlene

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    Jamal, is juniper tar oil different from juniper Essential Oil? I find it listed as an Essential Oil and used in many items such as soap, skin care products, for psoriasis, and so forth. Lush uses it in at least one of their products, in fact.

    How is it available in Iraq? Rather what does it look like? Does it look like a thick sticky substance (like tar) or does it look like an oil?

    Anyway, I find that it (Juniper) is also called Cade in some other countries and also found it (Juniper Tar Oil) as Juniperus Oxyedrus Wood Tar (which I would expect to look like our pine tar looks - thick, sticky, somewhat similar to tar), but that is also the INCI name for the Essential Oil, so I am still unsure.

    Maybe the alternate names would help lead to some information about a Safety Data Sheet, where one may find a saponification value. (Not always, but sometimes.) But if it's an Essential Oil, then it doesn't need to be listed in a lye calculator as an oil. And so far, that's all I am finding it as, an E.O.
     
  9. Apr 17, 2019 #9

    jamal

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    I used the pine tar number as found in the soap calculator and by 5%. Tar Juniper is common in Iraq, which is a black liquid, light-density similar to black oil, and I think that the specifications I mentioned depend on the quality of manufacture. I will explain something about juniper plant. thank you all
     
  10. Apr 17, 2019 #10

    DeeAnna

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    That's patronizing, Andrew. Obsidian deserves more respect than that. If you can't keep your tone courteous, keep it to yourself.
     
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  11. Apr 17, 2019 #11

    Angie

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    Please report posts if you think they are patronizing as we have admins to take care of it when reported.
     
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  12. Apr 17, 2019 #12

    Andrew

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    juniper tar and essential oil are completely different products. It is a brown, thick, sticky substance from the wood. Pine tar actually is produced in the USA to help horse hoof care. Juniper essential oil is made from the berry or needle.

    Cade is a species of juniper.
     
  13. Apr 17, 2019 #13

    dixiedragon

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    We know that tar is different from essential oil. However, we are dealing with a language barrier, since most of us can't read the container of juniper oil. Which is why we're asking jamal to describe it to us.
     
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  14. Apr 18, 2019 #14

    earlene

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    Thanks, Andrew, but jamal did answer my question about what the product in question looked like, which was my question for jamal.

    As far as knowing the difference between tar and EO, I do know the difference. I also know about and have used pine tar; I was not asking any questions about pine tar, or what it is like, as I already know since I have some here at my house.

    I do know the Juniperus oxycedrus species is also called Cade junipers, (and that they grow in the OP's part of the world) but there are plenty of references online wherein juniper tar oil is also called Cade oil, (which is what I was referring to in my previous post.).
    One of many examples of the online sources about cade oil, to which I refer: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3207742/
    Another example in which cade oil is described: http://aromatherapybible.com/cade/ (Of note, the EO is described as resinous, which means it is viscous and thick, smells tar-like and therefore, I could not help but wonder when I was asking the OP the questions I asked.)

    But thanks for offering your explanation.
     
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  15. Apr 18, 2019 #15

    jamal

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    I have written a detailed explanation of juniper plant. earlene
     
  16. Apr 18, 2019 #16

    Zany_in_CO

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    I remember from my pine tar soap making days, pine tar is treated as an additive, not a fat, because it doesn't contain fatty acids, therefore it has no SAP value.

    Sure enough, when I checked SoapCalc it is listed as:

    2ยข Worth.gif ( I apologize in advance if I sound condescending. Just trying to be helpful. ;) )
     
  17. Apr 18, 2019 #17

    earlene

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    Anyway, what I wrote in post #14 was in response to Andrew's post (post #12 above). I'm sorry if that was unclear.
     
  18. Apr 18, 2019 #18

    Andrew

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    pine tar has a SAP value and is in calculators. It is real low and similar to beeswax and jojoba oil.
     
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  19. Apr 18, 2019 #19

    DeeAnna

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    @Zany_in_CO -- Some ingredients consume alkali without making soap, so they technically do not have a saponification value, but they do have an "alkali consumption value" to give it a name. The soap recipe calcs handle this exactly as if it's a sap value. Since pine tar consumes NaOH and has a known alkali consumption value, it should be included in the lye calculations as if it is a fat.

    edit: After musing on this for awhile, I think one can make a good argument that an y additives that consumes alkali but don't saponify -- vinegar, citric acid, sugars, etc. -- could also be included in the soap recipe calculations just as if they were fats.

    I guess a person has to decide what shade of gray is the separation between additives that are treated "like a fat" versus the "not a fat" additives. For example, I have no problem treating pine tar as if it's a fat, but treating acids or sugars as separate "not a fat" additives. But I can see why others might draw the line in a different place.

    In my soap recipe, pine tar at 10% of the fats only consumes 7 grams of NaOH compared with about 170 grams NaOH in total, so it could easily be handled either way -- as if it is a "fat" or as if it is a "non fat" additive. In comparison, if I wanted to add citric acid at 0.5% ppo, the citric acid would consume 8 grams of NaOH.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2019
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  20. Aug 29, 2019 #20

    Baqn

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    Well ... I couldn't find any precise information also. I am pharmacist and I am working with that extremely pungent substance. It is brighter that Pine Tar but it's odor is far more intense. It is used also to imitate barbecue taste and smell. Juniper Tar (Oleum Cadini) is more acidic than Pine Tar. It is derived from the same plant as the Juniper essential oil. The EO is obtained from berries by distillation. The EO has oxalic acid which is bad for people with kidney stone disease when taken orally. It also contains other acids like formic, malic and acetic acid. The main content of the EO and JT are terpenes which do not consume lye. The SAP value of the EO is about 6, only the Indian EO has SAP value about 21. So I think that you can calculate it as Pine tar and try with 5 % SF. The worst thing that my happen is to have slightly higher SF in the final soap, since the acids in the Tar are fast reacting and they will consume lye much faster than the oils.
     
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