Is this mold in my LS?!

[emi]

I just noticed today that one of my jars of LS has a thin film at the bottom of what looks like blackish mold! It is Carrie's LS recipe (from IrishLass) I made in early May, only 3 months ago. It was made from scratch and diluted right away, kept in mason jars under my sink since. It has only been diluted. I add EO, PS80, and some extra SF when I pull some out to refill my dispensers. I just dilute all of it a once since I know I'll use it all up in less than a year. I took a look at my 100% CO LS 0% SF I have for cleaning that might be 2 years old. I don't really use it that much anymore. That one didn't have black, but did have some kind of fluffy looking white solids at the bottom. Is that mold? The 2 pics show both LSs. The yellow one is Carrie's and the clear one is the 100% CO.

I'm going to throw these out unless someone tells me otherwise. So assuming this is mold, can anyone tell me why this happened in such a short time? Is this maybe because I didn't sanitize the jars really well before I boiled them to dilute? I normally spray the inside with 99% alcohol then essentially do a canning method to dilute the paste with some soldium lactate, per IrishLass's directions. I'm also wondering if I can add a preservative for future batches. I have Germaben II. Will that work? Or do I just have to dilute as I go. But I diluted this only 3 months ago. I've been making and storing Carrie's LS diluted like this for up to 10 months and never had this happen. What is going on??

 

[Susie]

If in doubt, throw it out.

I wouldn't keep it. I would most definitely not keep it.

No idea what happened because I wasn't there at any step of the process.

I don't ever dilute all at once. I dilute what we can use in about 3 months. I keep my paste at room temperature.

 

[DeeAnna]

Could be microbial growth. Or it could be sediments that have settled out over time. Hard to say. Why one soap has white sediments and the other has a dark layer is another mystery.

If you think about it, microbes grow where there's a good mix of food and oxygen, so I'd expect to see other colonies of bacteria or fungus growing on the surface of the LS as well as maybe dead colonies that had settled to the bottom. Kind of like mold grows on the surface of jam and around the sides of the jar, not so much on the bottom of the jam.

But I'm not a microbiologist, so take my thoughts with a big grain of salt.

I first was wondering if you were talking about the odd hazy layer in the first photo (the water-white LS) a little bit above the bottom. That looked to me like bacterial growth if the layer is in the soap, but this could also be a hazy/cloudy something on the outside of the bottle.

 

[cmzaha]

And this is why I always added a preservative to my LS when I used to make it.

 

[emi]

Thank you all for your replies. I'll definitely throw it out and this time use the preservative I have. I'm just having a hard time believing that mold grew in just 3 months! And yes, I'll stop being lazy and dilute as I go.

 

[emi]

Could be microbial growth. Or it could be sediments that have settled out over time. Hard to say. Why one soap has white sediments and the other has a dark layer is another mystery.

If you think about it, microbes grow where there's a good mix of food and oxygen, so I'd expect to see other colonies of bacteria or fungus growing on the surface of the LS as well as maybe dead colonies that had settled to the bottom. Kind of like mold grows on the surface of jam and around the sides of the jar, not so much on the bottom of the jam.

But I'm not a microbiologist, so take my thoughts with a big grain of salt.

I first was wondering if you were talking about the odd hazy layer in the first photo (the water-white LS) a little bit above the bottom. That looked to me like bacterial growth if the layer is in the soap, but this could also be a hazy/cloudy something on the outside of the bottle.

Thank you for replying DeeAnna! The white/clear one with that white fluffy cloudy stuff on the bottom is on the inside in the soap. That one is a 100% CO 0%SF LS that's maybe 2 years old though so I should throw it out anyway. I clearly don't really use it often enough either. I used to use it for laundry (you helped me a lot with this and I learned so much!) but my severe hard water issues just made it too challenging so I stopped using it and kind of forgot about it under my sink.

It was the yellow hand soap one I was so shocked to see I only made 3 months ago. I checked the lid and top layer for any mold or growth but I didn't see anything. It just has that like a thin black layer that's settled on the bottom. That black film was in both jars I had made and diluted of the same batch. I can't believe mold grew in 3 months, especially when I used IrishLass's dilution method of using mason jars in simmering pot of water just like a canning procedure, air tight. Even if I had been diluting as I go, 3 months is how long it could've easily sat in the dispenser. Oh well, mysterious. Looks like I'll be using my preservative from now on.

 

[DeeAnna]

You have to use a preservative that is effective at high pH. Many are inactivated by high pH, especially pH as high as typical liquid soap will have.

The only ones I know of off the top of my head that will work are Suttocide and Liquid Germall Plus. The LGP is an off-label use for pH typical for liquid soap -- I think the manufacturer says up to pH 8 -- but a cosmetic chemist at Chemist's Corner or Making Skincare (again off the top of my head) says it's effective up to pH 10. There might be others that have cropped up in the past few years. I haven't studied this in awhile.

 

[emi]

You have to use a preservative that is effective at high pH. Many are inactivated by high pH, especially pH as high as typical liquid soap will have.

The only ones I know of off the top of my head that will work are Suttocide and Liquid Germall Plus. The LGP is an off-label use for pH typical for liquid soap -- I think the manufacturer says up to pH 8 -- but a cosmetic chemist at Chemist's Corner or Making Skincare (again off the top of my head) says it's effective up to pH 10. There might be others that have cropped up in the past few years. I haven't studied this in awhile.

Oooh this is very good to know. I forgot about that. Thank you. I wasn't surprised to find from a quick google search I just did that the one I have, Germaben II, is only up to 7.5. I'll get some pH strips too to test the new LS batch I'll be making to know what I'm dealing with. I should know that anyway. I'm kinda crunchy so I'll do a little research on preservatives. I'll dig around on swiftmonkey's site too and get my dollars worth! Thank you again DeeAnna!!

 

[emi]

The only ones I know of off the top of my head that will work are Suttocide and Liquid Germall Plus. The LGP is an off-label use for pH typical for liquid soap -- I think the manufacturer says up to pH 8 -- but a cosmetic chemist at Chemist's Corner or Making Skincare (again off the top of my head) says it's effective up to pH 10. There might be others that have cropped up in the past few years. I haven't studied this in awhile.
[/QUOTE]

So after reading some threads on this forum it sounds like there's no point in testing pH on LS, that it will be 9-11. I was reminded how much I really dislike researching preservatives. There's so many claims being made and hard to know what to listen to. Sure I'd prefer to use things that aren't harmful to the environment, but i sometimes get the sense I'm reading a rant of a conspiracy theorist. It's a wash off product anyway. I'm also reading though that it's not necessary to use a preservative for pH above 8. but that mold was disturbing. I think I'll get that Suttocide you mentioned that seems to be a well kept secret. It's crunchy enough and works up to 10ph! that's a hard combo to find. I haven't seen it mentioned anywhere on any of my preservative searches. Thank you again again DeeAnna, my soap mentor.

 

[DeeAnna]

I know about the common wisdom that pH above 8 is self preserving. And maybe a lot of the time, that idea works fine. The problem is pH isn't necessarily a fixed, stable quantity -- it can vary within the volume of a product and the pH can vary over time.

Also the ability of a product to maintain a high (or low) pH isn't consistent. For example, a more dilute solution of something like ready-to-use liquid soap can have a high pH, but that pH is not going to be as stable as the pH of a more concentrated solution such as the undiluted paste.

And lastly it is true that some microbes can and do survive nicely in high pH environments.

In your case, I believe you said you hadn't been using the liquid soap for awhile? Sitting quietly for weeks could have created some parts within the LS where microbes could manage to grow.

Heck, we know bacteria and fungi can grow on bar (NaOH) soap, and that supposedly has a high pH too. The advantage of bar soap is we wash off the offending microbes as the bar is used. If bar soap isn't immune, why is liquid soap any more immune?

 

[emi]

I know about the common wisdom that pH above 8 is self preserving. And maybe a lot of the time, that idea works fine. The problem is pH isn't necessarily a fixed, stable quantity -- it can vary within the volume of a product and the pH can vary over time.

Also the ability of a product to maintain a high (or low) pH isn't consistent. For example, a more dilute solution of something like ready-to-use liquid soap can have a high pH, but that pH is not going to be as stable as the pH of a more concentrated solution such as the undiluted paste.

And lastly it is true that some microbes can and do survive nicely in high pH environments.

In your case, I believe you said you hadn't been using the liquid soap for awhile? Sitting quietly for weeks could have created some parts within the LS where microbes could manage to grow.

Heck, we know bacteria and fungi can grow on bar (NaOH) soap, and that supposedly has a high pH too. The advantage of bar soap is we wash off the offending microbes as the bar is used. If bar soap isn't immune, why is liquid soap any more immune?

That makes perfect sense to me. My suttocide arrived and I'm ready to dilute! I'm going to always use a preservative for my LS from here on out. So if I do.... does that mean I can dilute all my paste all at once?!

 

[DeeAnna]

I don't normally dilute all my paste at once, but yes, you can do that if you want. Good luck!

 

[emi]

I don't normally dilute all my paste at once, but yes, you can do that if you want. Good luck!

Thank you DeeAnna! I feel like I was let in on a trade secret with this suttocide. I wouldve never known about it without your recommendation!