Is doing M&P Cheating? Like a Box Cake Mix?

[Sheila Pullar]

I also make MP soap I just love the designing of it, you can be so much more creative with it x

 

[pamielynn]

Oh, if I could just link you to a "soaper" here in town... she makes MP soap with a suspension base, plops some "organic coconut oil" into it and goes on and on about her handmade soap being "great for your skin and great for getting rid of those nasty germs like ringworm, staph, and MRSA." That's a direct quote.
To my mind, she hasn't even MADE soap, and nevermind the BS claims.

Yes, I find this frustrating. I'm sorry if that's not a popular point of view.

I've seen some amazing MP designs over the years - amazing! And I've noticed that most soap "designers" will call themselves just that - none of this "my soap is the best thing since sliced bread" - they accept the fact that they are not making soap from scratch and it will never be as good for skin as handmade - they enjoy knocking our socks off with their designs. But, I can't get over the ones who just melt a block of soap into another block of soap and call it good.

 

[bbrown]

I have used both and it just depends on the recipe as to what is better for skin. For instance, I have used a MP for quite some time that actually made my skin feel better than some of the scratch made soaps. I still use a CP soap for my face but I much prefer for MP for my body.

It depends on the person. And if someone is selling something, and people are buying it with no complaints, we should all just go on about our business and do what makes us happy.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

......................And if someone is selling something, and people are buying it with no complaints, we should all just go on about our business and do what makes us happy.

Unless those people are buying something that isn't what they think it is. If the seller of M&P is wrongly calling it hand-made soap, the customer THINKS they are getting hand made soap and won't complain. That is not something that should be left as it is and we all go about our business all happy. Not by a long way.

Call it "created from a soap base" and see if the same customers don't complain and stay as repeat customers. If they suddenly find out that someone has been passing off bought soap as hand made they might well start to complain and will do so loudly by taking their custom to someone who is willing to be truthful with them.

If people know it is M&P and are still happy, super. But calling it "hand made" and selling it as such is misrepresenting the product. That is not fair to the customers

 

[pamielynn]

Unless those people are buying something that isn't what they think it is. If the seller of M&P is wrongly calling it hand-made soap, the customer THINKS they are getting hand made soap and won't complain. That is not something that should be left as it is and we all go about our business all happy. Not by a long way.

Call it "created from a soap base" and see if the same customers don't complain and stay as repeat customers. If they suddenly find out that someone has been passing off bought soap as hand made they might well start to complain and will do so loudly by taking their custom to someone who is willing to be truthful with them.

If people know it is M&P and are still happy, super. But calling it "hand made" and selling it as such is misrepresenting the product. That is not fair to the customers

Well put. About sums up this whole debate.

 

[bbrown]

Unless those people are buying something that isn't what they think it is. If the seller of M&P is wrongly calling it hand-made soap, the customer THINKS they are getting hand made soap and won't complain. That is not something that should be left as it is and we all go about our business all happy. Not by a long way.

Call it "created from a soap base" and see if the same customers don't complain and stay as repeat customers. If they suddenly find out that someone has been passing off bought soap as hand made they might well start to complain and will do so loudly by taking their custom to someone who is willing to be truthful with them.

If people know it is M&P and are still happy, super. But calling it "hand made" and selling it as such is misrepresenting the product. That is not fair to the customers

Agree. I should have been more clear. My remark was more or less about the MP vs. CP debate in general. Of course I do not condone lying about what you are making. If someone is really doing that, then that's not good, whether it's MP or CP.

ETA: I do not have a problem with MP being called handmade. I know a lot of people disagree. I do have a problem with people making MP soaps and claiming that it is a cure-all, unless the person is a dr. or scientist who has some inside knowledge.

 

[MotheredByNature]

I am new to soap making so i chose to start with m&p. i have found a supplier that uses all natural, vegan ingredients. no detergents, no SLS or SLES. i know this is important to many people and this is why i searched and searched to find a base that is not mass produced by popular soap making supply companies. i have also purchased many different ingredients to add to them that are also natural and good for the skin. if the ingredient i add is green, then the soap is going to be green. i dont like to add any extra, unnecessary ingredients to my soap. ive found that it is actually MORE expensive for me to purchase such a high quality base and add-ins, but because i am new to this and have a very small child in the house, i dont feel comfortable yet playing with cp.
i've wondered if hardcore soapers looked down on using m&p as well. im so very happy to see that at least the wonderful people who have commented here have not been so mean as i thought they might be. i know it takes a lot of work and practice to make cp and i really envy it! i hope one day i can start cp! i have much respect for everyone in this industry. its not easy, its a lot of work no matter what kind of soap you use!

 

[CookbookChef]

For me, I have a new fond respect for ALL soapers of ANY kind. Saying that, I just will never get past the feeling that melt and pour is NOT homemade but Handmade.
I believe Melt and Pour is Handmade!

Just like if somebody makes a box cake at the house I still think they should call that HANDMADE as well, not homemade. To me, Grandma made HOMEMADE From Scratch Cake...literally, she even had a hand mill and would mill her own wheat. Now that to me is homemade for sure, even more so if she grew the wheat, but no, didn’t do that. Yet, to me, when someone buys the ingredients at the store and makes a homemade cake from scratch, adding flour, eggs, butter and more to CREATE a cake, that to me is Homemade.

Grandma Created a Cake from Scratch!

Where, the person who buys a cake MIX, well, to me that is the same as somebody buying melt and pour soap and ADDING Jojoba oil....or the person making a cake from a BOX and adding Soybean Oil, or Other liquid oil. It, at the end of the day, was an addition to a mix. So, to me, when a person uses a mix, no matter how deluxe or green the mix is to begin with, they are still making a HANDMADE Item. Not Homemade.

Melt and Pour is Handmade!

So, when I see a Melt and Pour Booth, and they claim it was HOMEMADE and not HANDMADE...to me I take issue with that. Is their lots of value in Handmade? YES...and I don’t know about you, but I love a piece of cake, be it Grandma made it from scratch and it is homemade, or be it we go to the bakery at the local store, where they use a MIX to make the cake...I love the taste of cake clear and simple. Just like I love Soap, no matter who makes it, It all has its value. At times, I even like the soap at the store that is mass produced...lol. Saying that, When it comes down to a real bottom line, Handmade to me is when a mix is used, and Homemade to me is when you make it from Scratch. And yes, if a soaper is lying about their soap, no matter what kind of soap they make, it is wrong and deceptive. Lying Soapers can be the ones that can make our industry collapse...We have enough trouble competing against the manufactures, we don’t need Cindy over at her soaping booth Lying and selling snake oil, so to speak. Yes, I have commented on all of this in the past, in a different way, but at the end of the day, I have to say I DO respect all soap makers and the path that they use to make soap. I just want it represented correctly because at the end of the day, if I am selling my soap, I have to compete with not only the manufacturing soaps, but all the brothers and sisters I have in the soaping community making different kinds of soap. And if one of them tries to up sell at their booth, by misleading ppl, that draws customers away from my booth and possibly can give soapers in general a black eye when the TRUTH comes out about any lie that was put forth.
Lying and misleading customers to gain money, is wrong and just not fair to our industry.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Without knowing what you end the phrase 'm&p is handmade.....' with, I can't agree with it.

If you were to say 'm&p is handmade soap' or homemade soap or anything that suggests that soap has been made, I cannot agree - the soap was bought.

It's not like a cake mix. A cake mix is not cake - you have to add things to it and do things to it to make a cake. On it's own, it is not a cake.

M&p with nothing done to it or added to it IS soap. You don't have to do anything to an m&p base to have soap, as it is already soap.

If using a cake analogy, m&p is buying a plain sponge and adding to it - the sponge on it's own is a cake. The cake itself was bought.

Again, I think the things that people do with m&p are outstanding and I do not disrespect them in anyway.

 

[grumpy_owl]

M&p with nothing done to it or added to it IS soap. You don't have to do anything to an m&p base to have soap, as it is already soap.

Sadly, it can be surprisingly difficult to be honest with the consumer. I make fancy MP and have had people tell me it's the only soap they can use, feels gentle on their skin, etc. I explain it is made from bought soap base with glitter, embeds, color and scent and I'm not responsible for the soap qua soap ingredients, just the overall look of the end product. But they're like, "Eh, whatever. Best soap I've ever used." Le sigh. Beauty, cleansing and cosmetic products are so very tied into customer perception.

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Beyond a doubt let's be honest, scent isn't even really needed, but I sure do love it

 

[grumpy_owl]

Scent..isn't...needed? :0 Spoken like a true guy. <shakes head sadly>

 

[Lindy]

Scent..isn't...needed? :0 Spoken like a true guy. <shakes head sadly>

Okay that was just funny. :lolno:

 

[fionasfrightsoap]

I was kind of bummed out to see this thread while looking on here for some inspiration and motivation, after feeling bullied and put down by some CP soapers recently in real life but after reading the replies, I am really glad I read this!

I use M&P bases. I carefully choose where they come from and what the ingredients are. I use natural colors and know the ingredients in my oils. I research every ingredient going in, carefully measure and calculate
fragrance/color/additive percentages for each batch and mix my own fragrance blends. Tested the formulas for a over a year before trying to sell them. Just as you buy flour, eggs and sugar and combine it to make a cake, I feel that buying a premixed base and reconfiguring it into your own soap bar is not cheating, or inferior.

Pricing for my soaps is a standard equation - cost of base, add ins, labor and packaging times a set markup percent.

Wording for my soap descriptions was very carefully thought out and I spend a lot of time trying to be as honest and open about my soaps as possible.

At some point I want to get into CP but with young kids and a small house, I don't feel it's the best choice right for me right now. I do feel that I know what is in my bars as well as someone that made their soap using CP. I think that my products stand up just as well as CP soaps in terms of how "good" they are and how well they work. I don't think that the time and effort I put in is any less than what a CP soapmaker does. As many of you far more seasoned veterans have said, it's just a different form of soaping. I'm feeling pretty darn good about my soap right now! http://www.soapmakingforum.com//www.pinterest.com/pin/create/extension/

 

[LBussy]

I was kind of bummed out to see this thread while looking on here for some inspiration and motivation, after feeling bullied and put down by some CP soapers recently in real life but after reading the replies, I am really glad I read this!

It was touch and go there for a bit but I'm glad you stuck with it!

At some point I want to get into CP but with young kids and a small house, I don't feel it's the best choice right for me right now.

Get some easy ingredients squirreled away and some weekend you will have the kitchen to yourself and you can give it a go. I just can't see a CP soap being any more time consuming or space demanding than what you say you do. Plus you already have molds!

I am *not* artistic by any means, and I darned sure can't mix EO/FO's and get what I want (anyone have a Lime/Bergamot recipe they want to share?) so for me using M&P would be ... melting and pouring. That's like making ice by starting with ice. :razz:

What folks like you do is definite artwork and I am jealous of your skills.

 

[fionasfrightsoap]

The decision to not try the CP just yet has more to do with the lye part. I think I want to wait till my youngest is a little older and less "active" and curious (lol) before I start trying out recipes. I should also clarify that I buy oils that are pre-made and combine them into the custom scents (inspired by horror movies!) I am starting to look into making my own oils though. I think I could do it! Thank you so much for the reply!!!

 

[not_ally]

I do both, and enjoy both. These days mostly CP unless I want to make something quickly for gifts, etc, but they are both so worthwhile and - if you use a good MP base - both head and shoulders over syndet bars, at least for me. A couple of things, it is kind of strange to me that so many of you CP-only types say that you are not artistic enough to do MP, some of the most beautiful soaps I have ever seen are CP bars whose beauty comes from shape and texture rather than from fancy swirls.

Also, it is scary that anyone selling soap would say no lye was used in their bars. Someone who is stupid enough to say that should really not be allowed to sell anything publicly.

 

[snappyllama]

I look at M&P as a gateway drug since that's how I started. Then I had the scents and the molds and clicked on the CP videos and had to try that. Of course, CP is just a gateway drug to lotions and potions. After all, you've got most of the oils and fragrances... why not get a few more ingredients and make your own aftershave, eye creams, body butters, liquid soap, lip balms and...

Evil enablers, all of you!

 

[not_ally]

I actually hate the title of this thread, I know some of you think it is on point, but it seems intentionally provocative and not constructive. Would not comment, but it has come up a number of times in the "new threads" display and I always think the same thing.

Edited to say: I don't want the mods to change it, there is enough censorship in the world. I just felt that it was titled either carelessly or deliberately to cause friction.

 

[Lindy]

I look at M&P as a gateway drug since that's how I started. Then I had the scents and the molds and clicked on the CP videos and had to try that. Of course, CP is just a gateway drug to lotions and potions. After all, you've got most of the oils and fragrances... why not get a few more ingredients and make your own aftershave, eye creams, body butters, liquid soap, lip balms and...

Evil enablers, all of you!

I know! My house is so full of ingredients, moulds, cutters, bottles, jars, and on and on and on that I'm wondering when I'm going to need an apartment! For me :lolno:

I actually hate the title of this thread, I know some of you think it is on point, but it seems intentionally provocative and not constructive. Would not comment, but it has come up a number of times in the "new threads" display and I always think the same thing.

Edited to say: I don't want the mods to change it, there is enough censorship in the world. I just felt that it was titled either carelessly or deliberately to cause friction.

When I first saw this thread I was terrified it would derail and was ready for the fight. I am so impressed that it has mostly been a very pleasant discussion on the differences between the 2 soap types.