INS and Changing Soap Recipe Values

SoapMakingForum

Help Support SoapMakingForum:

metuckness

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2016
Messages
5
Reaction score
1
Hi all,

I am making a soap and ran the recipe through a lye calculator that had an INS rating. This is new to me so i did some research on it, but what I have so far been unable to find out is how to modify that rating? Meaning do I have to change a specific oil? Replace a portion of one oil with another of the ones I am using or with a completely different one?

Does it make a difference if I am using Milk or Water? Since the calculator doesn't really specify liquid type (in this case Goats Milk).

Right now I have:

#√Oil/Fat%PoundsOuncesGrams
1Sunflower Oil46.883.75060.001,700.97
2Cocoa Butter25.002.00032.00907.18
3Coconut Oil, 92 deg9.380.75012.00340.19
4Emu Oil3.130.2504.00113.40
5Grapeseed Oil7.810.62510.00283.50
6Palm Kernel Oil7.810.62510.00283.50

Soap Bar QualityRangeYour Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 36
Cleansing 12 - 22 11
Conditioning 44 - 69 61
Bubbly 14 - 46 11
Creamy 16 - 48 24
Iodine 41 - 70 86
INS 136 - 165 120

Was wondering about getting that value of 120 into the 140's IF it makes a difference.

Thanks for any help and education you can assist me with!
 
Last edited:

Seawolfe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2014
Messages
3,272
Reaction score
2,983
Location
So Cal
I think of INS to give me a single number that tells me if my soap is roughly on track. You can change it both by using different oils or different percentages.

I can't parse out your percentages, but that's a really odd recipe. Sunflower and grape seed oil can be contributors to rancidity (DOS) because of their short shelf life. Emu oil is way expensive to use in a wash off product IMHO. Cocoa butter can be a lather killer, and is better replaced by lard/Palm/tallow unless you want it for a specific purpose. Your coconut oil is probably 76 deg and not 92, which is kind of unusual. Why did you choose these oils?
 

metuckness

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2016
Messages
5
Reaction score
1
I think of INS to give me a single number that tells me if my soap is roughly on track. You can change it both by using different oils or different percentages.

I can't parse out your percentages, but that's a really odd recipe. Sunflower and grape seed oil can be contributors to rancidity (DOS) because of their short shelf life. Emu oil is way expensive to use in a wash off product IMHO. Cocoa butter can be a lather killer, and is better replaced by lard/Palm/tallow unless you want it for a specific purpose. Your coconut oil is probably 76 deg and not 92, which is kind of unusual. Why did you choose these oils?

Percentages are:
Sunflower 46.88%
Cocoa Butter 25.00%
Coconut Oil 92, 9.38%

EMU Oil 3.13%
Grapeseed 7.81%
Palm Kernal Oil 7.81%

I add Vitamin E and Rosemary Extract as preservatives to extend soap longevity.

I believe the coconut oil is 92, but not 100% (I can't find the melting point on the website), it is Gold Label Virgin Coconut Oil from Tropical Traditions.

I want to make a Cocoa Spice (Clove) soap for bathing. I used the cocoa butter soap not only to help with the cocoa scent. I didn't want the soap to be too soft or hard so I combined the other oils to make a bar that wasn't too hard or soft. but because using the Sunflower Seed oil should of offset the lack of lather of the cocoa butter as should the Palm Kernel oil. Though I might could reduce the cocoa and increase the Palm Kernel to increase lather if needed.

if you have any other suggestions or changes I don't mind hearing them!

[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]Sunflower Seed Oil: Contributes to: stable lather, conditioning, silky feel, softer soap, slower trace. Sunflower oil contains Vitamin E, so it naturally resists going rancid.[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]

Cocoa Butter: Contributes to: soap hardness, stable lather, conditioning, moisturizing, quicker trace. When used as a superfatting oil it acts to lay down a protective layer which holds moisture to the skin. It has a natural chocolate scent but it is also available in an unscented version. Cocoa butter contains natural antioxidants that help to prevent rancidity. It is an excellent moisturizer that melts at body temperature, leaving the skin feeling soft and silky smooth.

[/FONT] Emu Oil (Because I have a little left): [FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]Used as a superfatting oil. Emu Oil is reported to help heal skin tissues and help draw other ingredients down into the skin so they are more effective.[/FONT]
[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]
Grapseed: Used as a superfatting oil, grapeseed oil is a lightweight oil that absorbs into the skin quickly without leaving a heavy greasy feeling. It has mildly astringent qualities and is said to be useful for acne and other skin complaints.
[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]Palm Kernel oil: Contributes to: soap hardness, fluffy lather, quicker trace. Palm Kernel oil makes a soap that is very hard and lathers well.

[/FONT]
 

cmzaha

Supporting Member
Joined
Sep 19, 2011
Messages
11,108
Reaction score
9,884
Location
Southern California
Percentages are:
Sunflower 46.88%
Cocoa Butter 25.00%
Coconut Oil 92, 9.38%

EMU Oil 3.13%
Grapeseed 7.81%
Palm Kernal Oil 7.81%

I add Vitamin E and Rosemary Extract as preservatives to extend soap longevity.

I believe the coconut oil is 92, but not 100% (I can't find the melting point on the website), it is Gold Label Virgin Coconut Oil from Tropical Traditions.

I want to make a Cocoa Spice (Clove) soap for bathing. I used the cocoa butter soap not only to help with the cocoa scent. I didn't want the soap to be too soft or hard so I combined the other oils to make a bar that wasn't too hard or soft. but because using the Sunflower Seed oil should of offset the lack of lather of the cocoa butter as should the Palm Kernel oil. Though I might could reduce the cocoa and increase the Palm Kernel to increase lather if needed.

if you have any other suggestions or changes I don't mind hearing them!

[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]Sunflower Seed Oil: Contributes to: stable lather, conditioning, silky feel, softer soap, slower trace. Sunflower oil contains Vitamin E, so it naturally resists going rancid.[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]

Cocoa Butter: Contributes to: soap hardness, stable lather, conditioning, moisturizing, quicker trace. When used as a superfatting oil it acts to lay down a protective layer which holds moisture to the skin. It has a natural chocolate scent but it is also available in an unscented version. Cocoa butter contains natural antioxidants that help to prevent rancidity. It is an excellent moisturizer that melts at body temperature, leaving the skin feeling soft and silky smooth.

[/FONT] Emu Oil (Because I have a little left): [FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]Used as a superfatting oil. Emu Oil is reported to help heal skin tissues and help draw other ingredients down into the skin so they are more effective.[/FONT]
[FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]
Grapseed: Used as a superfatting oil, grapeseed oil is a lightweight oil that absorbs into the skin quickly without leaving a heavy greasy feeling. It has mildly astringent qualities and is said to be useful for acne and other skin complaints.
[/FONT][FONT=comic sans ms,sans-serif]Palm Kernel oil: Contributes to: soap hardness, fluffy lather, quicker trace. Palm Kernel oil makes a soap that is very hard and lathers well.

[/FONT]
Why don't you make a balm with your emu oil. You will not guarantee it will be the superfat and even if it is it is going down the drain. Big waste in my opinion. I happen to have good luck with sunflower mid oleic, but would still lower the percentage to around 20% and nix the grapeseed oil. The only job for soap is to wash away germs. Lotions and balms can help with other problems. Rosemary and Vitamin E are NOT preservatives, they are antioxidants that will help a little to deter rancidity but not greatly in soap. Rosemary Oleoresin added to oils when first opened will help the shelf life of the oils. I add it to all my oils when I first open the totes
 
Last edited:

Seawolfe

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2014
Messages
3,272
Reaction score
2,983
Location
So Cal
I might well be wrong about the sunflower oil - I've never used it in soaps, so maybe someone else here can correct me. I know grapeseed can be problematic.

Unfortunately the cocoa butter scent will probably not survive the lye monster. My first soap was what I thought would smell like almond joy (coconut oil, cocoa butter and almond oil). It didnt, but the fact that I used somethign silly like 30-40% cocoa butter meant that some cocoa scent did survive. The soap wasn't as horrible as one might think once it cured for a year :)

If you are doing cold process soap, it doesnt matter when you add the emu oil - a mix of the oils will add to the superfat, not just the emu oil even if you add it after trace. If you are doing hot process you can add your superfat after the cook and it will be all that oil.

I cant speak for that particular coconut oil, but I do know that most of the time (every time Ive seen it) when someone doesn't know if its 76 or 92 deg, its 76 deg. But it doesn't matter so much because their SAP values are the same.

Try it and see :)

Just be sure to use safe values for the clove EO which can be irritating.
 

metuckness

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2016
Messages
5
Reaction score
1
I made a couple of changes and the ranges fit much better. All of them fall into the ranges nicely.

Removed the grapeseed oil and reduced the sunflower and added olive oil and removed the emu oil.

Seems much better all around.

Soap Bar Quality Range Your Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 47
Cleansing 12 - 22 25
Conditioning 44 - 69 49
Bubbly 14 - 46 25
Creamy 16 - 48 22
Iodine 41 - 70 62
INS 136 - 165 157

Lauric 18
Myristic 7
Palmitic 13
Stearic 9
Ricinoleic 0
Oleic 26
Linoleic 22
Linolenic 0
 

Steve85569

Supporting Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2015
Messages
1,898
Reaction score
2,104
Location
North East Oregon, USA
Let me guess...
You have upped the coconut oil quite a bit. The hardness and cleansing numbers tipped me off. You have a good hard and very cleansing ( maybe even harsh) recipe. I would now raise the olive up a little and see if I could get the conditioning number up. Most lye calcs will not give a cleansing number for olive but it will still clean. The main idea I have is to try and lower the cleansing and raise the conditioning to reduce potential harshness ( over cleaning).

Think drying vs only cleaning. You want to take the oils off the top of the skin not strip all the oils off.
 

metuckness

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2016
Messages
5
Reaction score
1
How about this? :)

Soap Bar Quality Range Your Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 45
Cleansing 12 - 22 26
Conditioning 44 - 69 50
Bubbly 14 - 46 26
Creamy 16 - 48 19
Iodine 41 - 70 66
INS 136 - 165 153

Lauric 19
Myristic 7
Palmitic 12
Stearic 7
Ricinoleic 0
Oleic 24
Linoleic 26
Linolenic 0
 

kchaystack

Supporting Member
Joined
Jan 14, 2015
Messages
1,906
Reaction score
2,082
Location
Monroe, LA
I would say your linoleic number is a bit high. Most people here try and keep it close to 15 i think.

Use less sunflower or soybean or safflower and up your olive.

You also could add 5% castor oil to help with bubbles. It is not a bubbly oil, but it helps support the other oils that are
 

topofmurrayhill

Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 11, 2015
Messages
1,183
Reaction score
1,406
Location
New York City
How about this? :)

Soap Bar Quality Range Your Recipe
Hardness 29 - 54 45
Cleansing 12 - 22 26
Conditioning 44 - 69 50
Bubbly 14 - 46 26
Creamy 16 - 48 19
Iodine 41 - 70 66
INS 136 - 165 153

Lauric 19
Myristic 7
Palmitic 12
Stearic 7
Ricinoleic 0
Oleic 24
Linoleic 26
Linolenic 0

INS is the KOH SAP value minus the iodine value. A lot of great soaps turn out being around 160. Properly formulated, these have an exceptional balance of lather, gentleness and longevity.

What people focus on more these days is the conditioning number in Soapcalc. This is unfortunate. As an indicator of mildness or some sort of skin enhancing effect, that number means nothing. The sooner you learn to disregard it, the sooner you can can become a good soap formulator. Good soaps often are within a certain range, but so many crap soaps are in that range that you need to focus on other things to get it right.

Your linoleic is too high, which will often be the case when you use linoleic oils like sunflower oil. That is not a soaping oil, so get rid of it and use primarily monounsaturated oils like olive instead of polyunsaturated. Get your linoleic below 15% and preferably below 10%. Get your oleic above 30% and in most recipes above 35%.

Add up your stearic and palmitic. Get those above 20% usually.

Experiment with stearic versus palmitic. To increase the proportion of stearic, you can use a generous percentage of tallow or roughly 10% tropical butters. Cocoa butter is the best choice to increase the proportion of stearic.

Lose the emu oil. You will encounter countless people who claim that a particular oil has some unique super-special properties in lye soap. Reality is much, MUCH closer to "they are all wrong" than "they are all right." As far as soaping is concerned, oils are mainly a source of fatty acids and the properties of soap are mostly determined by the balance of fatty acids.

If there is any validity to "property of oils" versus "balance of fatty acids" it has absolutely nothing to do with expensive or "luxury" oils. Everything can be achieved by standard soaping oils. You can use exotic oils if you enjoy setting money on fire.

Soaping oils are the following:

Lauric oils, meaning coconut and palm kernel oils, used up to 30%.

Soft oils, which would be olive oil and any oil specifically labeled "high oleic," used in widely varying percentages.

Palmitic/stearic hard oils like palm, lard, and tallow used in widely varying percentages.

Tropical butters, which are stearic oils, typically used at 5 to 15%.

Castor oil, 0 to 10% for most bar soaps.

As far as the numbers you posted are concerned, I don't need to know the oils. You should replace polyunsaturated linoleic oil with monounsaturated oleic oil, increase the palmitic/stearic, and follow the recommended percentages for lauric oils as above.

That's most of what you need to know.
 

metuckness

Member
Joined
Feb 14, 2016
Messages
5
Reaction score
1
INS is the KOH SAP value minus the iodine value. A lot of great soaps turn out being around 160. Properly formulated, these have an exceptional balance of lather, gentleness and longevity.

What people focus on more these days is the conditioning number in Soapcalc. This is unfortunate. As an indicator of mildness or some sort of skin enhancing effect, that number means nothing. The sooner you learn to disregard it, the sooner you can can become a good soap formulator. Good soaps often are within a certain range, but so many crap soaps are in that range that you need to focus on other things to get it right.

Your linoleic is too high, which will often be the case when you use linoleic oils like sunflower oil. That is not a soaping oil, so get rid of it and use primarily monounsaturated oils like olive instead of polyunsaturated. Get your linoleic below 15% and preferably below 10%. Get your oleic above 30% and in most recipes above 35%.

Add up your stearic and palmitic. Get those above 20% usually.

Experiment with stearic versus palmitic. To increase the proportion of stearic, you can use a generous percentage of tallow or roughly 10% tropical butters. Cocoa butter is the best choice to increase the proportion of stearic.

Lose the emu oil. You will encounter countless people who claim that a particular oil has some unique super-special properties in lye soap. Reality is much, MUCH closer to "they are all wrong" than "they are all right." As far as soaping is concerned, oils are mainly a source of fatty acids and the properties of soap are mostly determined by the balance of fatty acids.

If there is any validity to "property of oils" versus "balance of fatty acids" it has absolutely nothing to do with expensive or "luxury" oils. Everything can be achieved by standard soaping oils. You can use exotic oils if you enjoy setting money on fire.

Soaping oils are the following:

Lauric oils, meaning coconut and palm kernel oils, used up to 30%.

Soft oils, which would be olive oil and any oil specifically labeled "high oleic," used in widely varying percentages.

Palmitic/stearic hard oils like palm, lard, and tallow used in widely varying percentages.

Tropical butters, which are stearic oils, typically used at 5 to 15%.

Castor oil, 0 to 10% for most bar soaps.

As far as the numbers you posted are concerned, I don't need to know the oils. You should replace polyunsaturated linoleic oil with monounsaturated oleic oil, increase the palmitic/stearic, and follow the recommended percentages for lauric oils as above.

That's most of what you need to know.
Sorry, I have been traveling so I haven't had time to get back to replying. But it looks like I should revamp a lot of the ingredients.

I have a question. I just started making soaps a few months ago and I got a request to make some Lemon Verbena bar soap. I don't want to mess up this order as it is my first substantial order and the Lemon Verbena Essential Oil cost a bloody fortune.

I don't want to use milk or anything. Would anyone have a recipe recommendation I could use to make these bars of soap? I can make hot or cold process (I have an 8 quart croc-pot).

If anyone would like to post a recipe here I would greatly appreciate it. Would like to make around 5-6 lbs.

I have virgin olive oil, coconut oil, glycerin, mango butter, sunflower oil, corn oil and a few assorted small exotics that I don't really think I need (jojoba oil for one).

Thank you all for your help in the other and pointing out the values of the different oils et cetera.
 

shunt2011

Staff member
Admin
Joined
Apr 2, 2012
Messages
14,984
Reaction score
9,148
Location
Michigan
Unless you have a recipe that is tried and true made by you I would not suggest making it for anyone. How long have you been making soap? From your questions it doesn't sound like it's been long and you are posting in the beginners sections to boot. Regardless if someone hands you a recipe, unless you have tested it long term yourself you should not be accepting orders or selling it. Sorry, if this comes across as strong but it's a strong feeling felt by many here.

Recipes should be tested. You don't even know how it would perform at 4 weeks. Let alone how it will perform in 12. Will it get DOS? Sorry, don't want to sound mean but your are putting the cart before the horse so to speak.
 

topofmurrayhill

Lifetime Supporter
Joined
Apr 11, 2015
Messages
1,183
Reaction score
1,406
Location
New York City
Sorry, I have been traveling so I haven't had time to get back to replying. But it looks like I should revamp a lot of the ingredients.

I have a question. I just started making soaps a few months ago and I got a request to make some Lemon Verbena bar soap. I don't want to mess up this order as it is my first substantial order and the Lemon Verbena Essential Oil cost a bloody fortune.

I don't want to use milk or anything. Would anyone have a recipe recommendation I could use to make these bars of soap? I can make hot or cold process (I have an 8 quart croc-pot).

If anyone would like to post a recipe here I would greatly appreciate it. Would like to make around 5-6 lbs.

I have virgin olive oil, coconut oil, glycerin, mango butter, sunflower oil, corn oil and a few assorted small exotics that I don't really think I need (jojoba oil for one).

Thank you all for your help in the other and pointing out the values of the different oils et cetera.
If you are experienced enough to be selling soap, I'm sure you don't need recipe suggestions.

Does lemon verbena EO work in soap? So many don't and I wasn't going to pay that much to find out. Actually I don't think even my most specialized EO supplier has it. Your advice would be appreciated.
 

Latest posts

Top