hp soap making question

[sandy1919]

I've been making cp soap for a long time for family and friends. In all that time, there have been only one or two batches that have developed orange spots. Last year I tried hp processing and 4 out of five of my batches developed orange spots and also became rancid. I used the same oils I always have always used i.e. coconut, castor, lard, palm, and or sunflower/ olive oil. The only one that didn't become rancid contained only eo's. My oils were new and the little amounts I have left over don't smell rancid today. Has anyone else experienced excess rancidity (hope that's a real word) and orange spots? Thanks Sandy

 

[Susie]

I don't make HP, but I just found DOS(my first) on a batch of shampoo bars made 3 months ago that used new oils and EOs only, with no botanicals. I am just as confused as you are, so I am waiting on an answer also.

 

[dixiedragon]

I did a bunch of batches HP in October and November (getting ready for Christmas). I checked them and no DOS. I am wondering if possibly your oils got too hot and burned?

 

[Dorymae]

I've been making cp soap for a long time for family and friends. In all that time, there have been only one or two batches that have developed orange spots. Last year I tried hp processing and 4 out of five of my batches developed orange spots and also became rancid. I used the same oils I always have always used i.e. coconut, castor, lard, palm, and or sunflower/ olive oil. The only one that didn't become rancid contained only eo's. My oils were new and the little amounts I have left over don't smell rancid today. Has anyone else experienced excess rancidity (hope that's a real word) and orange spots? Thanks Sandy

First, are you sure it is DOS? I've had it happen where darker spots appear when using certain FO and EO. It is almost like small spots of FO didn't mix all the way in or "came out" of the solution and discolored. Yes, I have had it happen where there is an orange tinge to the spots.

If you are sure it is DOS, the EO you used may have antioxidant properties which would help to prevent DOS in those soaps. How old were the soaps when the DOS became apparent? Remember that oils can become rancid while in soap so if they got DOS after 6 months it may have been the sunflower oil.

Also a factor would be how high you superfat your soaps as any extra oils will be the ones most effected.

To help prevent DOS you can add a small amount of vitamin E to your batches.

 

[Nehlena]

Do you find this ok for hp?

http://www.morphyrichards.co.uk/pro.../48701-Brushed-Sear-and-Stew-Slow-Cooker.html

1) so, with the hp method you can use any cp recipe...

2) you now can use as SF any infused oils, right?

3) in counting the amount of SF, you first create a recipe with 0% SF and to the total oils then you find the amount of eg. 5% SF? How it works with hp the SF?

eg. I want to make a 500 gr. total oils soap recipe... I plug the recipe in the soap calc and for SF I plug 0%... cook, etc on slow cooker, then at the right moment I add extra 25gr for SF oil I want to use, so the result is a soap with 5% SF?

Thank you

 

[Nehlena]

I found this site... I guess it helps with hp SF...

http://curious-soapmaker.com/how-to-calculate-the-hot-process-superfat.html#comment-52072

I HATE THINKING IN oz... I am a gram person!!! :shock:

 

[Susie]

First, are you sure it is DOS? I've had it happen where darker spots appear when using certain FO and EO. It is almost like small spots of FO didn't mix all the way in or "came out" of the solution and discolored. Yes, I have had it happen where there is an orange tinge to the spots.
To help prevent DOS you can add a small amount of vitamin E to your batches.

OK, maybe this is what I have. The bars do not smell rancid whatsoever. And they were 8% SF with Vit E added.

 

[IrishLass]

Do you find this ok for hp?

http://www.morphyrichards.co.uk/pro.../48701-Brushed-Sear-and-Stew-Slow-Cooker.html

It looks like it would work fine. I would use it on the low setting probably. You can also HP directly in the oven using a stainless soup pot (that's how I do mine).

1) so, with the hp method you can use any cp recipe...

Yes- any CP recipe will work.

2) you now can use as SF any infused oils, right?

I've never done it myself, but I assume so. Hopefully someone who has done so will chime in soon to confirm that (I don't know if it would contribute to DOS or not).

3) in counting the amount of SF, you first create a recipe with 0% SF and to the total oils then you find the amount of eg. 5% SF? How it works with hp the SF?

Yes- this is what you would do if you want a certain fat to have the best chance of remaining as the superfatting oil/fat. However, if you have no preference as to which oil remains as the superfatting oil, just calculate the lye discount of your choice up front and add all the oils/fats together in your pot.

eg. I want to make a 500 gr. total oils soap recipe... I plug the recipe in the soap calc and for SF I plug 0%... cook, etc on slow cooker, then at the right moment I add extra 25gr for SF oil I want to use, so the result is a soap with 5% SF?

Yes, correct. Just to make sure.....the 'right moment' is when there is no more zap left in your cooked batter.


IrishLass

 

[Nehlena]

Thank you IrishLash...

why the following site makes such a difficult procedure to find the SF for hp?:shock:

http://curious-soapmaker.com/how-to-calculate-the-hot-process-superfat.html#comment-52072

 

[IrishLass]

Thank you IrishLash...

why the following site makes such a difficult procedure to find the SF for hp?:shock:

http://curious-soapmaker.com/how-to-calculate-the-hot-process-superfat.html#comment-52072

Oh my goodness! I just clicked on your link and my brain wanted to explode from how complicated she made it! Boy, talk about something being so simple that you have to have someone to help you misunderstand it! Yikes lol

It's as simple as a pimple (which you figured out on your own):

1) Just set the superfat to 0% on SoapCalc to get your lye and water amounts.

2) Decide what % you want your superfat to be.

3) As an example, let's say you want to have a 5% superfat..... simply tally up your formula's oil weight and multiply it by 5% (or .05).

4) Whatever sum you come up with in step #3 is how much extra oil of your choice to add at the end of cook.

That's it! Easy-peasy


IrishLass

 

[Nehlena]

phewwww... I saw what she did and brain circuit failure occured...:Kitten Love:

Yep sounds logical what you wrote...

 

[MagicalMysterySoap]

Thank you IrishLash...

why the following site makes such a difficult procedure to find the SF for hp?:shock:

http://curious-soapmaker.com/how-to-calculate-the-hot-process-superfat.html#comment-52072

I use this to calculate my sf. It's really not as complicated as it looks. Other people have different technique. I find this to be the most accurate.

 

[IrishLass]

I use this to calculate my sf. It's really not as complicated as it looks. Other people have different technique. I find this to be the most accurate.

Yep- our brains must be wired differently! lol As long as it gets you to the right place, though, use whichever technique that doesn't blow your circuits. lol

IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

The Curious Soapmaker has a method that is mathematically correct and is based on the saponification values of the fats involved. And if it makes sense, then by all means use her method.

Irish Lass explained the other "simple percentage" method that is used by many soapers. It will work fine too, although the results will be somewhat different.

There's just as good an argument for using the simple percentage method as there is for using the Curious Soapmaker's method. I can follow the reasoning and the math for both, and I can see why some feel passionately about one method and many feel just as strongly about the other.

A group of us got into a debate about the validity of these two methods a while back. The end result of that debate is that we pretty much agreed to disagree. :razz:

 

[DeeAnna]

But to bring the discussion back to the OP's question, some of my bars develop individual spots of orange color, but other bars don't -- even in the same batches. Individual spots can come from so many random sources -- oxidized bits of FOs, EOs or other additives as others have pointed out. They can also come from particles of metals, dust contamination, or tiny bits of whatever. I can't blame myself too much for this type of DOS, although I keep working on ways to minimize the appearance of these spots.

Vitamin E has been shown by Kevin Dunn to not be very effective in preventing oxidation (rancidity) of oils. Better options are ROE (rosemary oleoresin), sodium citrate, tetrasodium EDTA, and BHT. These anti-oxidants and chelators are effective protection. According to Dunn, adding 1 gram of ROE to every 1000 g of oils right after you buy the oils is a pretty effective way to minimize DOS. And it's a good option for those looking for a "natural" solution to this problem.

If the color change and rancid odor covers pretty much the entire bar, inside and out -- that's pretty clearly rancid oils or some another ingredient that is going bad, IMO. I traced a case of overall rancidity for one whole batch of CO-lard soap to my use of lavender EO that I didn't realize was oxidized.

I also found in a very personal way recently that overall rancidity and color change can be related to how soaps are stored. A few months ago, my girlfriend showed me some of the soaps I'd given her over the years. They were all from different batches and different ages and different packaging (or no packaging). All of the "naked" bars I'd given her were horrifyingly orange-yellow and smelled funky, but the bars I'd packaged in shrink wrap were fine. I gently but firmly swallowed my embarrassed reaction and gathered up all the bad bars. When I got back home, I frantically looked at the samples I'd kept in my "bone pile stash" from these same batches. The sample bars in my bone pile were all fine! She was storing her soaps in an old cardboard box, so I figured it might have been acids or something from the cardboard that was creating the problems. I now shrink wrap all of my soaps and will keep a careful eye on them as time goes on.

SoapSmith did a test of storing soap in various ways that showed similar results: http://www.artfire.com/ext/shop/blog_post/Soapsmith/136/soapsmith_s_dos_experiment

 

[IrishLass]

The Curious Soapmaker has a method that is mathematically correct and is based on the saponification values of the fats involved. And if it makes sense, then by all means use her method.

Irish Lass explained the other "simple percentage" method that is used by many soapers. It will work fine too, although the results will be somewhat different.

There's just as good an argument for using the simple percentage method as there is for using the Curious Soapmaker's method. I can follow the reasoning and the math for both, and I can see why some feel passionately about one method and many feel just as strongly about the other.

A group of us got into a debate about the validity of these two methods a while back. The end result of that debate is that we pretty much agreed to disagree. :razz:

DeeAnna, your comment, "Although the results will be somewhat different", twanged my soapy antennae- as did the rest of your above quote (and also a re-read of MagicalMysterySoap's post)- and I went back and re-read Curious Soapmaker's blog several times (risking cranial implosion, since the way she forms her sentences gives me much brain strain, lol), until I could 'see' there was a difference between her method and the method I wrote earlier.

Now that I can see there is a difference, I'm trying to re-write her method for myself in my notes in my own 'language' so that I can understand it better to actually be able to try the method out.

I learn something new everyday with you around!



IrishLass

 

[DeeAnna]

I learn a lot from you too!

If you can re-write her method in a way that makes sense to you, please share if you would be so very kind! I think there are others who could benefit from a clear explanation.

I completely understand her method, but I simply cannot think of a clear, interesting, and useful way to explain it. After the heated debate I mentioned in my earlier post, I think I got seriously burned out on the issue, and that's making it hard for me to constructively think about it. :shifty:

 

[The Efficacious Gentleman]

Ah, I remember it well!

It essentially comes down to the terminology - if 5% of the oils in a recipe are unsaponified, it's a 5% superfat.

Curious soap maker is talking about a lye discount, which is where the amount of lye required to saponify all oils is reduced by, say, 5%. That is then both a 5% lye discount AND a 5% superfat.

In the first case, even though 5% of the oils are unsaponified, my lye amount has nothing to do with them so I cannot say that it is a 5% lye discount. You could work out what the lye discount is based on the sap values of your superfat, if you really wanted to.

On another note, you need to make sure that the total batch size is 500g for a 25g superfat to be 5%. If you make a 500g 0% sf batch and add 25g of oil, your batch is now 525g with a 4.75% superfat.

Make a 475g 0%sf batch and then add 25g to have a 500g batch with 5% superfat.

 

[DeeAnna]

Gent, I regret to say your interpretation of the CS's method may be somewhat off the mark. But ... speaking as gently and friendly as possible ... I ain't a-gonna get inter it again other than to just say this much.

 

[Sislea]

Ah, I remember it well!

It essentially comes down to the terminology - if 5% of the oils in a recipe are unsaponified, it's a 5% superfat.

Curious soap maker is talking about a lye discount, which is where the amount of lye required to saponify all oils is reduced by, say, 5%. That is then both a 5% lye discount AND a 5% superfat.

In the first case, even though 5% of the oils are unsaponified, my lye amount has nothing to do with them so I cannot say that it is a 5% lye discount. You could work out what the lye discount is based on the sap values of your superfat, if you really wanted to.

On another note, you need to make sure that the total batch size is 500g for a 25g superfat to be 5%. If you make a 500g 0% sf batch and add 25g of oil, your batch is now 525g with a 4.75% superfat.

Make a 475g 0%sf batch and then add 25g to have a 500g batch with 5% superfat.

wow that just went right over my head and out the window :crazy: But being new to soaping, it doesn't take much to do that.