HP + CP Hybrid

[K_G79]

Hi! I am new to soap making & have a question about making a quazi crockpot HP+CP hybrid soap and if this is even possible.

In theory, the fat/oils, water, an lye would be measued for a full batch. Heating only the hard fats and water/lye solution to hotest temp, and cooking, then adding soft oils with hand blender at cool - or slightly cooler temp than cook, but not cooking any further or maybe at a lower temp for a longer period of time, would this create a usable bar? I am trying to have a fluid batter without extra water or having too much of an orange/brown hue?

I know I can add sodium lactate and other thing to loosen the batter and firm up the bar - just worried about the amount of lye that might still be present in the soap withouth the high temp extended cooking.

Also, this may be a completely rookie question - be kind, please.

 

[Kcryss]

I'm sure someone with far more experience will jump in, but imho I don't think this would work. If you want to do a hybrid type process you could start out as hp (all oils combined, add water/lye solution), cook a bit, but not long enough to fully saponify, then pour into molds etc. The lye would still be active, but the batter would be far more fluid then fully cooked hp.

 

[cmzaha]

It makes no difference when you add your liquid oils, the lye will still use the oils, but I really do not know if you will end up with a more fluid batter since you will still be using the same amount of oils. Why don't you just use the cp method, it would be much easier.

One other issue with your method is the fact your batter is going to trace really fast with the extra lye in the beginning so you really will not accomplish anthing, and I am not sure you will be able to stir in your liquid oils. This will depend on your percentage of liquid oils to hard oils.

 

[K_G79]

It makes no difference when you add your liquid oils, the lye will still use the oils, but I really do not know if you will end up with a more fluid batter since you will still be using the same amount of oils. Why don't you just use the cp method, it would be much easier.

One other issue with your method is the fact your batter is going to trace really fast with the extra lye in the beginning so you really will not accomplish anthing, and I am not sure you will be able to stir in your liquid oils. This will depend on your percentage of liquid oils to hard oils.

I'm sure someone with far more experience will jump in, but imho I don't think this would work. If you want to do a hybrid type process you could start out as hp (all oils combined, add water/lye solution), cook a bit, but not long enough to fully saponify, then pour into molds etc. The lye would still be active, but the batter would be far more fluid then fully cooked hp.

Thanks for the info - the main reason why I wanted to attempt a hybrid was to cut down on the cure time (2-3 weeks) & have a clearer/crisper looking soap (not dingy/spotted). I guess I could continue with the hot process method. I use tea as a base so it makes the bars darker already - just though I would get some feedback!

 

[jcandleattic]

to cut down on the cure time (2-3 weeks)

Nothing will cut down the cure time. Soap needs that time to become a less harsh bar. There is much more going on with the bars during cure than just water loss.

 

[K_G79]

Nothing will cut down the cure time. Soap needs that time to become a less harsh bar. There is much more going on with the bars during cure than just water loss.

With HP, there is a 1-2 week cure time and with CP, there is a 4-6 week cure time. I realize there is more than just water loss happening - just wanted to see if there was a way to speed up CP with partial HP method. Or even slow down HP with a partial CP. I like the properties of CP but with the type of soap I make, HP ensures I don't have a rancid product by the end of cure with CP. Most of my soaps typically have a very short shelf life, due to the tea used, so I just wanted to see if anyone had experience and success using a hybrid method or if it was even possible. I guess i can always experiment & see what happens.

 

[DeeAnna]

You say your soap has goes rancid in only 4-6 weeks?!?!? Wowser. That's an amazingly short shelf life. I'm not sure I could accept this limitation even if I was only making soap for my family's use. As a beginning soap maker, you might want to look into how to mitigate this problem.

A "hybrid" method won't shorten cure time. I use something like what you describe when I make soap such as shave soap or pine tar soap where the added stearic acid or pine tar cause the soap to trace really quickly. But I do this more for ease of processing -- I don't consider it a way to shortcut the cure time.

The "common wisdom" that HP is cured in 1-2 weeks while CP soap needs 4-6 weeks isn't correct. If you are taking other people's words for this, you owe it to yourself to test this theory and prove it to youself --

Try a long-term experiment with a few samples of your favorite freshly-made soap, ideally a few that are HP and a few CP. Test the quality of the lather, longevity, and hardness of each type of soap and its mildness to the skin over at least 3 months. Also measure the water loss of the samples during this time. Keep good written notes as you go -- do not count on your memory to be accurate. At the end of this time, see what your test results show.

 

[jcandleattic]

Thank you @DeeAnna, you are always so much more elegant with your replies than I am.

 

[K_G79]

You say your soap has goes rancid in only 4-6 weeks?!?!? Wowser. That's an amazingly short shelf life. I'm not sure I could accept this limitation even if I was only making soap for my family's use. As a beginning soap maker, you might want to look into how to mitigate this problem.

A "hybrid" method won't shorten cure time. I use something like what you describe when I make soap such as shave soap or pine tar soap where the added stearic acid or pine tar cause the soap to trace really quickly. But I do this more for ease of processing -- I don't consider it a way to shortcut the cure time.

The "common wisdom" that HP is cured in 1-2 weeks while CP soap needs 4-6 weeks isn't correct. If you are taking other people's words for this, you owe it to yourself to test this theory and prove it to youself --

Try a long-term experiment with a few samples of your favorite freshly-made soap, ideally a few that are HP and a few CP. Test the quality of the lather, longevity, and hardness of each type of soap and its mildness to the skin over at least 3 months. Also measure the water loss of the samples during this time. Keep good written notes as you go -- do not count on your memory to be accurate. At the end of this time, see what your test results show.

I am in the experimentation phase now - hence my question. I use 100% organic ingredients - one of them is herbal tea and tea goes rancid really quickly on its own. I also use unrefined Sea Buckthorn which also has a short shelf life. HP allows me to cure for less time & be able to use the soap faster (usually in 1-2 weeks). And if I refrigerate my bars, I can usually get about 1-2 months of use out of a small batch before there is a slight odor. It smells sour - I assume it's because of the tea. I do need to figure out if this is something I need to continue using. The bars have a beatutiful desnity, gentle (I don't even have to moisturize after), creamy fluffy lather & hold up extremely well (most bars last 3-4 weeks in the shower, depending on if I use them as shampoo/body bar combo)

I feel strongly about making a really good bar of soap that is very earth conscious and body fiendly. It isn't all about only the cure time - I love CP & have made really nice bars with that process and most of my bars were ready in just over a month. I am branching out & trying HP but found the batter to be a bit more of a struggle. Maybe I should have phrased the question differently. Again, I am new to this - I just need advice on the process.

 

[GemstonePony]

I do a HP/CP hybrid but using a microwave, HOWEVER: you have to use a lot of water to keep the soap workable while the first bit goes to vaseline (too little water = dry silly putty). Also, IME the second batch of oils has to be heated once it's added to get the batter to be smooth. It does make the batter more fluid, but with a nearly 3:1 water: lye ratio to make it work, it takes a few days to unmold, a week or more to become cuttable, and of course it's going to take longer to dry out. Not quite 30% longer, but still, if your goal is to get your soap more usable more quickly, this does the opposite. The only thing it does is let you specify which oils are less likely or more likely to become superfat (but no guarantees).

 

[DeeAnna]

I think you have your answer as far as the combo HP/CP method you tried. It's do-able thing to do, but a miracle method it's not.

As far as rancidity goes, that is the process of fats oxidizing into free fatty acids and then the fatty acids continuing to decompose into the smelly ketones and aldehydes that have that distinctive "off" smell characteristic of rancid fat.

Anything that doesn't have fat in it by the definition I use isn't able to go rancid, so my guess is you and I are using this word in different ways. Quite a few of our members here use food purees, water infusions (teas), and similar food-based ingredients and I can't say many people mention their soap going "rancid" because they use these ingredients.

As far as using exotic fats such as sea buckthorn in soap ... it's certainly a do-able thing to do, if you don't mind the expense. Bear in mind, however, that lye breaks apart every triglyceride fat into fatty acid and glycerin in the process of turning into soap.

This means the properties of any given batch of soap is more closely related to the properties of the fatty acids in the soap, not the fats that supplied the fatty acids. In other words, linoleic and linolenic acids from sea buckthorn doesn't look any different to lye than those same fatty acids from hempseed oil.

If you truly want to get the most out of the skin benefits of sea buckthorn, it's great in a leave-on product like a serum, anhydrous butter, or emulsified lotion.

 

[Arimara]

Maybe you should do a search on HP techniques. It's not going to do a thing about curing- that will always take 4-6 at the least weeks matter how you make your bars but some of us do things like covering out crockpots with cling wrap to minimize water evaporation during cook. Some others may do that and also use some yogurt to keep the batter fluid. I'm lazy and prefer just cling wrap and using closer to full water for HP. CP lye concentrations were too dry for me to work with considering my crockpot.

 

[dragonmaker]

From a chemistry perspective, properly formulated CP and HP are both usually safe to use after 2 days in that you won’t get lye burns from the soap. After those first 2 days when CP is still finishing the saponification reaction, they really aren’t that different chemically. Neither is well cured nor as mild as it could be by 2 weeks. Both benefit from the long cure time to rearrange their crystal structure. I would follow DeeAnna’s advice if I were you. Make a 2 small batches of the same recipe one CP and one HP and try them at 2 weeks, 3 months, 6 months, and 1 year. Write down detailed notes about weight changes, lather density and texture, and how your skin feels after washing. You might be surprised at what you find.

If your soap really is going rancid in under a month, I’m guessing your ingredients are somehow to blame. You mentioned the herbal tea goes bad quickly on its own. So does milk, but milk soap bars can also last for years at room temperature. I’m using a 1.5 year old goat milk soap bar right now, and it has not gone rancid. How quickly saponification happens won’t change your soap as much as your ingredients will. Good soap can last at room temperature for years. You shouldn’t need to refrigerate it. If you post your full recipe including additives with weights on everything, people here might be able to help you brainstorm what is going wrong.

 

[K_G79]

I do a HP/CP hybrid but using a microwave, HOWEVER: you have to use a lot of water to keep the soap workable while the first bit goes to vaseline (too little water = dry silly putty). Also, IME the second batch of oils has to be heated once it's added to get the batter to be smooth. It does make the batter more fluid, but with a nearly 3:1 water: lye ratio to make it work, it takes a few days to unmold, a week or more to become cuttable, and of course it's going to take longer to dry out. Not quite 30% longer, but still, if your goal is to get your soap more usable more quickly, this does the opposite. The only thing it does is let you specify which oils are less likely or more likely to become superfat (but no guarantees).

Thank you! I just needed a process that I could look to for this. I have some CP experience (very much a noob) & I have just started with HP because a friend suggested it may help stablelize to tea and that I could cut down on cure time. I also read where a woman added a 1/2 cup of water after cook to loosen it up. Someone said sodium lactate would help. I have been really confused by this transition and just though what if I could just blend the processes? My batter has been like slimy putty but I can't get it in the individual molds fast enough & then its clumpy and doesn't want to smooth out. I have even ticked up my superfat to 7%, putting in my sea buckthorn/grapeseed mixture lastly. Nothing has worked.

I will absolutely be tryin this, GemstonePony!

 

[K_G79]

I think you have your answer as far as the combo HP/CP method you tried. It's do-able thing to do, but a miracle method it's not.

As far as rancidity goes, that is the process of fats oxidizing into free fatty acids and then the fatty acids continuing to decompose into the smelly ketones and aldehydes that have that characteristic "off" smell characteristic of rancid fat.

Anything that doesn't have fat in it by the definition I use isn't able to go rancid, so my guess is you and I are using this word in different ways. Quite a few of our members here use food purees, water infusions (teas), and similar food-based ingredients and I can't say many people mention their soap going "rancid" because they use these ingredients.

As far as using exotic fats such as sea buckthorn in soap ... it's certainly a do-able thing to do, if you don't mind the expense. Bear in mind, however, that lye breaks apart every triglyceride fat into fatty acid and glycerin in the process of turning into soap.

This means the properties of any given batch of soap is more closely related to the properties of the fatty acids in the soap, not the fats that supplied the fatty acids. In other words, linoleic and linolenic acids from sea buckthorn doesn't look any different to lye than those same fatty acids from hempseed oil.

If you truly want to get the most out of the skin benefits of sea buckthorn, it's great in a leave-on product like a serum, anhydrous butter, or emulsified lotion.

Maybe rancid isn't the word - sour is more likely how I would describe it. Like the funky tea you sometimes get at resturaunts. I prepare it right before I make the batch & it doesn't sit out for very long. It's all organic, non-GMO herbal tea, steeped in a glass measuring cup - I don't understand it. It isn't out of date, hasn't been wet before brewing. It confuses me to no end.

The sea buckthorn goes in after cook. I try to dilute it with other oils (avocado or grapeseed oil) so that it isn't so expensive per batch to use @ 2:1.

 

[GemstonePony]

Thank you! I just needed a process that I could look to for this. I have some CP experience (very much a noob) & I have just started with HP because a friend suggested it may help stablelize to tea and that I could cut down on cure time. I also read where a woman added a 1/2 cup of water after cook to loosen it up. Someone said sodium lactate would help. I have been really confused by this transition and just though what if I could just blend the processes? My batter has been like slimy putty but I can't get it in the individual molds fast enough & then its clumpy and doesn't want to smooth out. I have even ticked up my superfat to 7%, putting in my sea buckthorn/grapeseed mixture lastly. Nothing has worked.

I will absolutely be tryin this, GemstonePony!

Also, to clarify: my method is to start with my CO, Castor, and whatever else is there for longevity. Turn that to vaseline, then add liquid oils and whatever else remains, heat the combined mixture back up to above 160°f so it's hot enough to gel, and then you can fragrance it, divide it, color it whatever, and get it poured as it cools back down.
Also, I really don't think the tea is the problem- are you curing your soap near metal or sunlight?

 

[K_G79]

Also, to clarify: my method is to start with my CO, Castor, and whatever else is there for longevity. Turn that to vaseline, then add liquid oils and whatever else remains, heat the combined mixture back up to above 160°f so it's hot enough to gel, and then you can fragrance it, divide it, color it whatever, and get it poured as it cools back down.
Also, I really don't think the tea is the problem- are you curing your soap near metal or sunlight?

I have been making my soap in the kitchen & it’s really bright in there - I wouldn’t say direct sunlight but it is more sunny than the rest of my home. And I have a stainless steel drying rack that I put cooling & unmolded soaps on to cure. I usually have parchment paper between the unmolded soap & the rack, though.

I am moving operations to the basement soon - have things set up in a small finished area with little sunlight i recently built a wooden rack for drying.

 

[earlene]

Since you can't really cut down on cure time, it seems like way too much work and resource (electricity, time, wash-up) wasteful.

If it were me, I'd either HP or CP, depending on my mood or the design I have in mind for the soap. I have in the past used the CP to heat the hard oils, then went on to complete the soap via the CP method, but it just created more dirty dishes to wash and more heat in the kitchen. Now in the winter, that extra heat might be worth it, but for me, CP is just plain more enjoyable and I like the look of my CP soaps more than my HP soaps.

 

[AliOop]

I have been making my soap in the kitchen & it’s really bright in there - I wouldn’t say direct sunlight but it is more sunny than the rest of my home.

This may be why your soap is going rancid/funky. It needs to cure out of the bright light.